SFML community forums
General => General discussions => Topic started by: Jebbs on July 17, 2013, 07:51:58 am
-
I was thinking today that it might be pretty cool to have some sort of SFML Game Jam. While I don't have time to put anything like this together, I was wondering what other people would think of something like this.
Having some kind of sanctioned SFML Game Jam could also help to increase awareness for SFML, which is great.
Thoughts? Ideas?
-
That would be very cool, IMO. Some points that would need to be defined:
- Time window: 24, 48 hours?
- Any theme?
- Other constraints? Only SFML based games, I guess. Maybe a requirement to post the source, so that it doubles as SFML-teaching material?
- Prizes? ::)
-
That would be very cool, IMO. Some points that would need to be defined:
- Time window: 24, 48 hours?
- Any theme?
- Other constraints? Only SFML based games, I guess. Maybe a requirement to post the source, so that it doubles as SFML-teaching material?
- Prizes? ::)
If its for learning, maybe make it 72 hours just so that people have a chance to clean things up/slightly polish their games? I like the idea of having everything open source. The only other constraint would be(obviously) that it has to use SFML or, one of its bindings.
Definitely a theme, but we should figure out how to choose one. We could put a list of suggestions together and vote? It would be nice to have some kind of randomness of some kind when choosing a theme though.
It should be a fun little jam, so I don't know about making it a competition with prizes. Also, where would the prizes come from? I don't know about you, but I'm just a poor college student. :P
-
This is an exciting idea, but I'm afraid I won't have much time to take care of that. Would you like to organize it?
-
This is an exciting idea, but I'm afraid I won't have much time to take care of that. Would you like to organize it?
It was never my intention to have you set it up. I know how busy you are. ;)
Really what I was trying to do is to get people on board with this idea so that the SFML community could put some ideas together on how to get it set up and going since I figured that would be a good place to start.
-
Definitely a theme, but we should figure out how to choose one. We could put a list of suggestions together and vote? It would be nice to have some kind of randomness of some kind when choosing a theme though.
I agree. In fact, participants shouldn't know the theme (or at least, the exact requirements) until the jam starts: part of the fun is designing the whole game in just a few hours or days. Easiest would be if someone who isn't participating was to chose the theme secretly, or at least announced extra constraints just before the jam.
EDIT: Or we just resort to randomness (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9894614/ludumthemes/themegen.html).
-
In fact, participants shouldn't know the theme (or at least, the exact requirements) until the jam starts
Absolutely. Perhaps we can have some kind of way to submit ideas for themes and someone(or maybe a small program) can randomly pick from all/the best submissions.
EDIT: Or we just resort to randomness (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9894614/ludumthemes/themegen.html).
That's pretty cool, but some of the themes are really bad. One of the ones that popped up for me was "Jello" :P
-
Would like this too if anyone was organizing it :D
-
I'd be willing to give it a try too. Nice idea.
-
Would be great =) But beware not to organize that at the same time as other events like Ludum Dare.
-
The idea sounds really nice!
I attended a couple game jams and their way of finding a theme worked like this: A couple days before the jam everybody on their facebook page couple suggest up to three themes. Then in the beginning of the jam all the attendants could upvote or downvote every suggenstion once. The suggestion with the highest score was used.
-
Would be great =) But beware not to organize that at the same time as other events like Ludum Dare.
Very good point. I didn't even think about that.I attended a couple game jams and their way of finding a theme worked like this: A couple days before the jam everybody on their facebook page couple suggest up to three themes. Then in the beginning of the jam all the attendants could upvote or downvote every suggenstion once. The suggestion with the highest score was used.
That's not a bad idea, but it takes some of the randomness out of it. Right now I'm thinking that people could email/submit their suggestions and one get's chosen at random.
Also, since people seem to like this idea so far(but no one else seems to want to take charge yet :P), I'll try to write up a draft for a set of rules today and think about a system for submission and possible how/where we want to host everything.
-
That's not a bad idea, but it takes some of the randomness out of it. Right now I'm thinking that people could email/submit their suggestions and one get's chosen at random.
It's a good idea, but also dangerous, because some themes can be really bad and hard, so it would be better if we can vote, so we can go into a general direction everyone feels comfortable with.
We could also make it similar to Lundumdare, where we end up with a few themes and just at the starting point the actual theme is chosen at random.
So "huge list of suggestions" -> 'voting' -> "small list e.g. 5" -> 'random chosing' -> "final theme"
-
So "huge list of suggestions" -> 'voting' -> "small list e.g. 5" -> 'random chosing' -> "final theme"
I can only say : +1 ;D
-
A game jam would definitely be nice, but beware that the LD is soon, and I don't think too many of us would enjoy having two jams in a one week period. :p
Maybe organizing regular jams could be a nice way to show the SFML community is alive and running.
I think that a 72 hour jam would be nice, but you could host two, one of 72 hours and another that lasts a week, and do the first on the first week, then the second on the next week. Dunno.
Also, it's nice to have a game jam that only includes a certain library. I hate the competitive bit of the LD because of all the people using GameMaker and Unity and whatnot, when you're working your ass off in C++.
It would definitely be something I'd participate in and enjoy. I guess we'll see how the idea turns out. :)
-
A game jam would definitely be nice, but beware that the LD is soon, and I don't think too many of us would enjoy having two jams in a one week period. :p
LD is Aug. 23-26th
I suggest the week before that, Aug 16-18, one month from now, as tentative date. That way, it doubles as ludum dare warmup, for those that want to participate in that. It might be a bit too soon, but I think we should do one version of this before interest fades. The next jam can be planned better.
I think that a 72 hour jam would be nice, but you could host two, one of 72 hours and another that lasts a week, and do the first
IMHO, more than 2 or 3 days and it isn't really a jam anymore. Part of the fun resides in knowing that you won't be spending *that* much time, so you can implement crazy ideas. Also, it lowers the entry barrier. Many of us might not have a whole week to commit. YMMV.
So "huge list of suggestions" -> 'voting' -> "small list e.g. 5" -> 'random chosing' -> "final theme"
I can only say : +1 ;D
Let's start throwing out some suggestions then:
- Classic games combined
- Non-traditional geometry
- Two rights (don't) make a wrong
I'll try to write up a draft for a set of rules today and think about a system for submission and possible how/where we want to host everything.
I'd say, for a first edition of the jam, let's keep things simple, and use the Forum. On the decided date, Jebbs can create a thread announcing the final theme and any special constraint. People can then answer with their submissions.
-
This sounds like an excellent idea! Personally, I like the idea of a 72 hour jam; announce the theme and start the jam mid-Friday and accept submissions until mid-Monday.
I'd say, for a first edition of the jam, let's keep things simple, and use the Forum. On the decided date, Jebbs can create a thread announcing the final theme and any special constraint. People can then answer with their submissions.
Another option to consider is a ready-made game jam framework (http://brettchalupa.com/bmo).
-
That's not a bad idea, but it takes some of the randomness out of it. Right now I'm thinking that people could email/submit their suggestions and one get's chosen at random.
It's a good idea, but also dangerous, because some themes can be really bad and hard, so it would be better if we can vote, so we can go into a general direction everyone feels comfortable with.
We could also make it similar to Lundumdare, where we end up with a few themes and just at the starting point the actual theme is chosen at random.
So "huge list of suggestions" -> 'voting' -> "small list e.g. 5" -> 'random chosing' -> "final theme"
Honestly, what I meant by "one get's chosen at random" was actually that I'd pick my favorite. :P
I really like this though. It'll definitely be how we decide the final theme.
What I think I'll do is allow people to suggest themes for a set period of time, create an online poll for everyone to vote, and randomly pick one of the top five, like eXpl0it3r suggested.
A game jam would definitely be nice, but beware that the LD is soon, and I don't think too many of us would enjoy having two jams in a one week period. :p
That's a great point. I don't want to have to make anyone choose one over the other.
Maybe organizing regular jams could be a nice way to show the SFML community is alive and running.
Yes! And to get others more involved with it! That was what I really wanted to achieve by starting this.
I'd say, for a first edition of the jam, let's keep things simple, and use the Forum. On the decided date, Jebbs can create a thread announcing the final theme and any special constraint. People can then answer with their submissions.
I think this is what we'll go for, at least for the first jam. Depending on how popular it is, we can expand from there.
I suggest the week before that, Aug 16-18, one month from now, as tentative date. That way, it doubles as ludum dare warmup, for those that want to participate in that. It might be a bit too soon, but I think we should do one version of this before interest fades. The next jam can be planned better.
I think that might be cutting it a little too close. Since we'll be using the forums for submission, there won't be much to set up. Why not have it sooner? My own suggestion is Aug. 2-4. It's also a weekend, a little over 2 weeks from now so it gives us some time to prepare and spread the word, and there is plenty of time to recover before people do Ludum Dare.
I think that a 72 hour jam would be nice, but you could host two, one of 72 hours and another that lasts a week, and do the first
IMHO, more than 2 or 3 days and it isn't really a jam anymore. Part of the fun resides in knowing that you won't be spending *that* much time, so you can implement crazy ideas. Also, it lowers the entry barrier. Many of us might not have a whole week to commit. YMMV.
I agree. I'm pretty set on it being a 72 hour jam only.
Another option to consider is a ready-made game jam framework (http://brettchalupa.com/bmo).
If this gets pretty popular, I might just do that for the next one. I think the forums are just enough for the very first jam though.
-
Id be up for this!
Been a little while since I've participated in a game jam so this could be a lot of fun.
-
Sounds like a good idea! Concerning prizes, we could offer hardcopies of the SFML Game Development book, if you are interested :)
-
Sounds like a good idea! Concerning prizes, we could offer hardcopies of the SFML Game Development book, if you are interested :)
Personnaly, I would participate even if there are no prices. I'm interested in the challenge. Besides, Ludum Dare has no prices if you do not count on the exposure made on you. Yet I can understand that it motivates some people.
I think that even if we are a certain number already having the book around here, that's a good idea.
-
Personally I'm not a biiig fan of using 'real programming languages' in game jams. Much prefer to use RAD tools.
I'm a big fan of taking the time to constantly refactor and driving the code from tests, and the time limits on jams combined with the sleep deprivation just beat down on that too much for me. And just doing anything else feels like 'just hacking it out', which makes me feel dirty.
But if people want to do it, well...why not? I may even try to suck it up and join in :)
-
Sounds like a good idea! Concerning prizes, we could offer hardcopies of the SFML Game Development book, if you are interested :)
To tell the truth, I have mixed feelings about having prizes. On one hand, it can help get people to actually join the event(given the prizes are something they want) but on the other hand, it can take some of the fun away by making the jam a competition. Aster mentioned some stuff to me the other day, so I agree that we should at least give some kind of score to each submission(still working out the details). With that in place, if someone(you) wants to donate some prizes for a jam, then we already have a good way to figure out who get's them. and that could be very cool. I'll just have to mention that there might not be prizes for every SFML Jam.
That said, I have absolutely NO problem giving something as cool( and relevant!) as the SFML Game Development book out as a prize to the top 1-5 games,depending on how many free copies you want to give out. I think it's pretty awesome you are offering! :D
Personally I'm not a biiig fan of using 'real programming languages' in game jams. Much prefer to use RAD tools.
I'm a big fan of taking the time to constantly refactor and driving the code from tests, and the time limits on jams combined with the sleep deprivation just beat down on that too much for me. And just doing anything else feels like 'just hacking it out', which makes me feel dirty.
But if people want to do it, well...why not? I may even try to suck it up and join in :)
Something else Aster pointed out was that this way it keeps the playing field more or less even. Since SFML bindings are going to be fair game, you could use one for a language that has a faster turn around times. :P
-
No problem, take the time to discuss advantages and disadvantages of prizes. I wouldn't feel offended if you chose a different prize or none at all ;)
I'd also limit the scope of the jam to programming languages, at least for the first event. Another, maybe not that important thing to consider is that C++ has a rather small standard library (especially C++03), while other languages are usually more feature-rich.
Would you only allow programming language + standard library + SFML (binding), or also extensions like those from the wiki, Thor, ...?
-
I think the way it'll be handled is that prizes won't normally be a part of the jam, but if someone is kind enough to donate something to be used as prizes, they are more than welcome to.
Right now I'm feeling like programming language + standard library + SFML (binding) is good, but information from the wiki is ok to use as well. Thor might be a little much only because it is C++ only. Make some Thor bindings, and then who knows? ;)
I'd also limit the scope of the jam to programming languages, at least for the first event. Another, maybe not that important thing to consider is that C++ has a rather small standard library (especially C++03), while other languages are usually more feature-rich.
That's true, but C++/SFML vs. C#/SFML.Net is better than C++/SFML vs Game Maker.
-
I have a rough draft of some rules/information on the SFML Game Jam ready. Let me know what you think, or if something should be added/changed/clarified!
I will also be opening up a new thread specifically for theme submissions.
Time:
The jam will start midday(some time) August 2nd and end 72 hours later on August 4th
Theme:
Anyone is able to submit their idea for a theme. Theme submission is open 2 weeks before the start of a jam and ends 1 week before the start of the jam. People are allowed to vote on their favorite theme over the next week. The day of the start of the jam, one theme is chosen at random from the 5 theme submissions with the highest votes.
Rules:
1. You can work on a team of two, or by yourself. Must be stated when submitting.
2. You only have 72 hours to create both the code and the content of your project
3. Game must be based on the theme.
3. Game MUST use SFML, or one of its bindings. It cannot use any other game library, but information provided in the wiki is ok.
4. Link to source code(github?) must be provided in submission.
Scoring:
Scoring will be based on several categories with an over all score being the average between them and a possible total of 70 points.
1. Fun – How enjoyable the game is to play
2. Creativeness – How creative the ideas for the game are, and how well they are executed.
3. Theme – How much the theme is a part of the game and how well the incorporation works
4. Graphics – How nice the graphics are and/or how well they work with the concept of the game
5. Audio – How nice the music&sound is and/or how well they work with the concept of the game
6. Immersion – How easy it is to become engaged in the game
7. Mood – How well the vibe of the game is expressed
Scoring will be more lenient for people that work by themselves.
Prizes:
Prizes aren't normally a part of this jam, but if anyone would like to donate prizes for the top scoring submissions, they are more than welcome to!
Other than that, your prize is knowing that you had fun attempting to make a game with SFML in only 3 days. Go you!
-
Time:
The jam will start midday(some time) August 2nd and end 72 hours later on August 4th
Where's the time? :P
2. You only have 72 hours to create both the code and the content of your project
3. Game must be based on the theme.
3. Game MUST use SFML, or one of its bindings. It cannot use any other game library, but information provided in the wiki is ok.
You'll need to expand on what you mean with "content". I think you mostly meant the assets, right?
"based" is a rather vague word, maybe add a few more words to it.
One can "use SFML" in all kinds of way and at what is the definition of a "game library"?
Scoring:
Scoring will be based on several categories with an over all score being the average between them and a possible total of 70 points.
Who are the judges?
Let's see how this goes! ;)
-
1. Fun – How enjoyable the game is to play
[...]
4. Graphics – How nice the graphics are and/or how well they work with the concept of the game
5. Audio – How nice the music&sound is and/or how well they work with the concept of the game
6. Immersion – How easy it is to become engaged in the game
7. Mood – How well the vibe of the game is expressed
Some of the criteria overlap, especially immersion and mood. For the others it's probably fine, since it's rather difficult to find completely orthogonal criteria.
"Fun" should be reworded to "gameplay" or similar. Depending on the theme, games may convey a sad/thoughtful/horrific/... atmosphere, which shouldn't be scored negatively.
Ideas for other criteria, some of which can be incorporated to existing ones:
- Combination of different media (graphics, sound, text, ...) --> immersion
- Story --> creativity
- Simplicity, controls, camera --> gameplay? own category "function"?
- Correctness, stability, bugs --> function?
-
Time:
The jam will start midday(some time) August 2nd and end 72 hours later on August 4th
Meep (http://mcp.ocean-labs.de/page.php?7).
Oh well, I'd prefer this anyways.
-
I have posted a thread on gamedev (http://www.gamedev.net/topic/645641-first-sfml-game-jam/). If you have accounts on other forums or communities, maybe do the same? That way, and with a bit of luck, we might get some "outsiders" to join in on the fun ;) and get to spread the gospel of SFML.
-
The jam will start midday(some time) August 2nd and end 72 hours later on August 4th
Maybe at 17:00 UTC? Or just 12:00 UTC. Americans aren't awake at 12:00 UTC. Aussies, Eastern Asians aren't awake at 17:00 UTC.
3. Game MUST use SFML, or one of its bindings. It cannot use any other game library, but information provided in the wiki is ok.
4. Link to source code(github?) must be provided in submission.
Fir the first one, we need to specify more. I think "Not using any other game library/framework and using at least two SFML modules." is better, since some people will want to use GL, and that's perfectly normal, a lot of people like 3D.
1. Fun – How enjoyable the game is to play
2. Creativeness – How creative the ideas for the game are, and how well they are executed.
3. Theme – How much the theme is a part of the game and how well the incorporation works
4. Graphics – How nice the graphics are and/or how well they work with the concept of the game
5. Audio – How nice the music&sound is and/or how well they work with the concept of the game
6. Immersion – How easy it is to become engaged in the game
7. Mood – How well the vibe of the game is expressed
Whoa, whoa! You're grading a AAA title! No, but jam games tend to be minimalist, and although a lot of them will be good, those same games will fail miserably in a lot of these categories (such at Audio and Graphics, two things not many people are good at).
Prizes aren't normally a part of this jam, but if anyone would like to donate prizes for the top scoring submissions, they are more than welcome to!
Other than that, your prize is knowing that you had fun attempting to make a game with SFML in only 3 days. Go you!
Heheheh, prizes might be a good incentive to get people to join this small jam, not big ones, but a prize nonetheless. Maybe there could be a donation system for the jam, where on each jam, the user is asked if they want to donate some money to cover hosting costs, and, 75% of that money will go to the winner?
Maybe including monetary stuff isn't such a good idea. It makes people greedy and competitive in a bad way.
Dunno, I think a small prize, maybe even just a little "I wrote this in 72 hours and won the SFML 08/2013 jam with this game!".png badge might be good.
Thanks for starting this idea. It's really a great project and just what the SFML community needs!
P.S: I'm sorry if I said what other people have said, I kind of read everything with my eyes nearly closed last night. :P
-
Fir the first one, we need to specify more. I think "Not using any other game library/framework and using at least two SFML modules." is better, since some people will want to use GL, and that's perfectly normal, a lot of people like 3D.
I would not allow OpenGL, because then everybody has his own little engine.
We should really stick to SFML, this also demonstrates its possibilities :)
-
Fir the first one, we need to specify more. I think "Not using any other game library/framework and using at least two SFML modules." is better, since some people will want to use GL, and that's perfectly normal, a lot of people like 3D.
I would not allow OpenGL, because then everybody has his own little engine.
We should really stick to SFML, this also demonstrates its possibilities :)
I guess. I've just started learning GL a few weeks ago, and I really enjoy it, maybe I'm just caught in the moment and think everything should be made with raw GL. I did that with SFML when I started with it, and the same with C++. ( I even went so far as declaring C++ the master webdev language. I regret every single bit of that. )
Also, I think we should allow libraries that make use of SFML. (Thor's particle system and concave polygons are so, so useful for a game jam, and apparently it has better joystick support and things, which are definitely a plus, although I haven't had the chance to use that bit yet.) However, as there are a few gamedev SDKs (I think) that use SFML, we should specify: programming on that one. :P
-
hm, if it's going to be 2.-4. august i'll have to pass unfortunately :S
also the other date that was proposed here (16.-18. it was?) overlaps with the final two days of the 7dfps jam.
anyways, i would love to be able to participate though >.<
-
hm, if it's going to be 2.-4. august i'll have to pass unfortunately :S
also the other date that was proposed here (16.-18. it was?) overlaps with the final two days of the 7dfps jam.
anyways, i would love to be able to participate though >.<
16-18 is the week end just before Ludum Dare, It will bedificult todo two jam in two weeks :p
-
We could do it once every two months or so.
-
16-18 is the week end just before Ludum Dare, It will bedificult todo two jam in two weeks :p
yes, that too. I could rather imagine doing the jam in september although something might pop up out of nowhere there too xD
-
Hey guys,
I'm crazy busy with homework today, but I wanted to mention take care of a couple of things before I dive head first into Calculus for the next 12 hours. First off, everything I posted in my rough draft is not set in stone. I felt ok opening up the theme thread because even if we decide we should change the date or something, we can still close the thread after a week and have the list of themes we need to vote on ready to go. We'll just open the voting a week before the set date.
Time:
The jam will start midday(some time) August 2nd and end 72 hours later on August 4th
Where's the time? :P
I'm not really sure yet. I'm in UTC-8, but I know a lot of people on the forums aren't even close to that. Maybe we should just pick some arbitrary start time ?
Scoring:
Scoring will be based on several categories with an over all score being the average between them and a possible total of 70 points.
Who are the judges?
That's a good point. As much as I would want to, I probably won't be able to participate. If I'm not in school, I'm at work. However, I would totally be up for judging. If anyone else on the forums won't be able to participate, but would be interested in judging, they should let me know.
ALSO, I think we should find a way to force Laurent to either participate or judge. :P
1. Fun – How enjoyable the game is to play
[...]
4. Graphics – How nice the graphics are and/or how well they work with the concept of the game
5. Audio – How nice the music&sound is and/or how well they work with the concept of the game
6. Immersion – How easy it is to become engaged in the game
7. Mood – How well the vibe of the game is expressed
Some of the criteria overlap, especially immersion and mood. For the others it's probably fine, since it's rather difficult to find completely orthogonal criteria.
"Fun" should be reworded to "gameplay" or similar. Depending on the theme, games may convey a sad/thoughtful/horrific/... atmosphere, which shouldn't be scored negatively.
Ideas for other criteria, some of which can be incorporated to existing ones:
- Combination of different media (graphics, sound, text, ...) --> immersion
- Story --> creativity
- Simplicity, controls, camera --> gameplay? own category "function"?
- Correctness, stability, bugs --> function?
Now is a great time to discuss what the exact criteria for scoring should be. Here's a question for everyone: if you participated in a game jam, what categories would you want to have your game judged in?
Whoa, whoa! You're grading a AAA title! No, but jam games tend to be minimalist, and although a lot of them will be good, those same games will fail miserably in a lot of these categories (such at Audio and Graphics, two things not many people are good at).
It's pretty similar to Ludum Dare's scoring. It's mostly based on theirs actually. :P
All participants that submit a game are allowed to judge. Games are given 1-5 star ratings in each category, or N/A where not applicable. The categories include:
- Innovation – The unexpected. Things in a unique combination, or something so different it’s notable.
- Fun – How much you enjoyed playing a game. Did you look up at the clock, and found it was 5 hours later?
- Theme – How well an entry suits the theme. Do they perhaps do something creative or unexpected with the theme?
- Graphics – How good the game looks, or how effective the visual style is. Nice artwork, excellent generated or geometric graphics, charming programmer art, etc.
- Audio – How good the game sounds, or how effective the sound design is. A catchy soundtrack, suitable sound effects given the look, voice overs, etc.
- Humor – How amusing a game is. Humorous dialog, funny sounds, or is it so bad it’s good?
- Mood – Storytelling, emotion, and the vibe you get while playing.
- Overall – Your overall opinion of the game, in every aspect important to you.
- Community – Journals, photos, timelapse video. Everything you do above and beyond just making the game.
Obviously the score is going to be based on how well they did within the 72 hour time frame. I won't expect a professional quality game to be made by one person in 72 hours. :P
I know there were a few questions about what should and shouldn't be allowed, and right now I'm thinking that what is truly important is that people have fun and that we spread awareness of SFML to a larger crowd. If Nexus wants to use Thor on top of SFML, why not? If Aster wants to use OpenGL, why not? So as long as they use SFML as their windowing system I think I'll be happy. They should still use the Audio module and Networking module is they want to use those capabilities though(or at least something built on tip of them).
Another thing I wanted to mention was prizes. I am still liking the idea of having prizes only if they are donated, but we need to have some kind of enforcement for rule following if they are involved. Until then, I'm going to go with a no prize policy.
We could do it once every two months or so.
I want to make it a regular thing, but I wasn't sure how often it should be. Anyone have any problems with this? My only worry is that if we make it too often, it won't be such a huge deal.
Thanks for all your feedback everyone! This has been much better experience so far than I expected!
-
ALSO, I think we should find a way to force Laurent to either participate or judge.
This won't be easy :P
-
Or it could start at the start/end of a day, and end at the end of another, regardless of where people live.
Who cares if someone wants to sacrifice his sleep for a few LOW productivity hours? :p
-
We could do it once every two months or so.
I want to make it a regular thing, but I wasn't sure how often it should be. Anyone have any problems with this? My only worry is that if we make it too often, it won't be such a huge deal.
To be honest 2 month apart is quite close. I mean if you always get enough people go for it, but it's not so easy to find enough people that are will to spend a whole week end on some fun programming ever other month.
-
In my opinion, a Jam isn't a Jam if:
1. the theme is not optional and open to interpretation;
2. there is prizes;
3. only a select group of people can judge.
See for example how Ludum Dare works (http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/rules/).
The first point is about the liberty of just doing something in the time, risking to be under evaluated if you go too far from the theme. The evaluation should take into account how the theme have been used, but not ban games that don't use it, just give them less "points".
The second point is well known to immediately kill the fun. Search for reports from organizers of game jams, this one is an instant killer. Global Game Jam began like that but abandonned quickly.
The third point is first because not everybody have the time to test tons of games in a limited time, even if it's onlyu 30seconds per game. Second because the point is to make games in the time limit, good if possible, and just let people play it. A jam is never about being better at convincing judge, it's being better at convincing a maximum of players. So anyone should be able to give a vote (or several). Maybe only people registered or something like that, to filter a bit, but don't make a group of judges.
-
I know there were a few questions about what should and shouldn't be allowed, and right now I'm thinking that what is truly important is that people have fun and that we spread awareness of SFML to a larger crowd.
The problem I see is that the fun may be decreased because this becomes then a general game contest, not a jam on top of SFML. When allowing OpenGL and what-not, it will be more difficult for people not familiar with it to compete. The focus will then lie on "who knows low-level rendering techniques best" and not "who can use SFML to create amazing games". And we are then very similar to other contests, I think it would be good to have a little uniqueness by pushing SFML ;)
I think at least for the first jam we should probably limit the libraries to SFML -- it will also be nice to show the games to others by saying "this was built only with SFML". This is far more impressive than using SFML only for a tiny part like windowing, because it demonstrates the power of SFML. I'm not even sure if Thor & Co. are a good idea, for two reasons: Again, people knowing it have a massive advantage; and it is not available for other languages than C++ (there is a Python binding, but I don't know how stable and up-to-date it is).
-
Advantages are not to be taken into account for a Jam because it's not a competition with prize (or more exactly, it shouldn't be if you want to keep the fun).
I would suggest this formula:
- to be listed in the official list of jammers, use SFML and jam alone;
- have a separate list of jammers who worked in team or with SFML-based higher lilbraries;
- no other restriction at all;
- maybe a random theme which is optional, just to help people who don't have tons of ideas;
-
When allowing OpenGL and what-not, it will be more difficult for people not familiar with it to compete.
I don't think it is possible to eliminate the experience advantage, especially not by restricting how you can use SFML. OpenGL integration is a feature of SFML, and I think it should be permitted (I always use OpenGL directly, just because I am used to it :P). Besides, OpenGL users would likely produce similar graphics in the end if they stick to 2D. The SFML abstraction of OpenGL is supposed to make it easier to use, not limit it (again, when in the realm of 2D).
I would suggest SFML be required, but without any further restrictions.
-
I would suggest SFML be required, but without any further restrictions.
*raises hand up* I used sf::Vector2f in my GLFW game! Does that count? :P
I'm curious as to whether 3D games should be allowed ( if GL were allowed ). Or should we keep it a 2D Jam?
-
Then I wonder why you call it "SFML Game Jam" and not simply "Game Jam"? If it's not tied to SFML or only to a tiny part of it, it doesn't make sense to promote it as SFML.
I think such a jam is a great opportunity to show that the SFML community is active, and to present their projects to other game developers. Games based on OpenGL defeat this purpose and may convey the impression that combining SFML with OpenGL is the standard way to do it (as it was for SDL if you wanted reasonable performance). But it's not, OpenGL is only needed for very specific features.
-
@ Aster:
We can say that it at least needs to use SFML windowing and sound or something like that. Some minimum integration level. OpenGL integration is part of SFML's feature set, so I think you should be able to use it. If OpenGL were allowed, then why not allow 3D as well?
*raises hand up* I used sf::Vector2f in my GLFW game! Does that count? :P
We could have a SFML integration rating or something, or just ask those who rate it to keep in mind the extent to which SFML was used. Let the community decide if the developer was cheesing the use of SFML.
Games based on OpenGL defeat this purpose and may convey the impression that combining SFML with OpenGL is the standard way to do it (as it was for SDL if you wanted reasonable performance).
Well, if everyone ends up using OpenGL, then it IS the standard way of doing it ;) I think that games submitted would give a reasonable representation of who likes using SFML's drawing API and who prefers to use OpenGL with SFML.
I don't want to abandon my OpenGL :'(
-
My 2 cents: I feel it should only be SFML and whatever base language of your choice. Leave it to SFML graphics. Since this is an 'SFML Game Jam' we should try to push the sfml graphics to really see what people can do with them. Everyone knows what OpenGL can do, more or less, but maybe not everyone knows the capabilities of the SFML graphics library.
I've always believed in the theory that the more restrictions you put on something the more creative and inventive ways of doing that which you aren't suppose to do come out. Without restrictions I've seen creativity get stifled and ways to solves problems or inventions become boring and copy pasted since without the restrictions as soon as someone finds one way for something to work pretty good it just get copied and used over and over.
Just my 2 cents.
-
Well, if everyone ends up using OpenGL, then it IS the standard way of doing it ;)
What I meant is that it's perfectly fine for 99% of the features to use the SFML API -- it is powerful enough. And the game jam would be a nice event to demonstrate this power.
I don't want to abandon my OpenGL :'(
I understand that, but since we are talking about a SFML Game Jam, you should probably not stick to your personal preference.
-
I must continue the fight for OpenGL :)
One of the cool features of SFML is that you can so easily integrate it with plain OpenGL! I think this feature should be advertised like any other. SFML includes OpenGL integration, so using OpenGL is still using a feature of SFML. If SFML provides something, you should be able to use it. Besides, wouldn't it be cool to have people make 3D games?
-
I'm fine with cool 2D games.
Besides where's the difference in using OpenGL + SDL/Allegro/GLFW/your own window code?
That SFML has this feature is quite "normal", but SFML is much more than yet-another-opengl-instanziaton-library. SFML stregth lies with its API simplicity on all multimedia aspects, so I think we should show this more off.
-
One of the cool features of SFML is that you can so easily integrate it with plain OpenGL!
Neither is that a specific feature of SFML, nor is that argument very expressive. You can extend it to "SFML allows you to use the Audio module for sound, and Irrlicht for graphics". Like this, you can justify any other library.
You should rather address the arguments we brought:
- It is called SFML Game Jam, there are tons of other game jams where OpenGL is allowed.
- We can push the library and demonstrate what is possible using SFML alone, including its Graphics module.
- By restricting to SFML, we have a clearly defined scope that matches the community. There is no confusion about OpenGL versions or extensions. Results are more comparable if the same technology is used.
- Users will learn to be creative with SFML, new techniques or best practices might emerge.
-
Neither is that a specific feature of SFML, nor is that argument very expressive. You can extend it to "SFML allows you to use the Audio module for sound, and Irrlicht for graphics". Like this, you can justify any other library.
Well, SFML wraps OpenGL. So you would be forcing the use of a wrapper, whose simplicity should provide enough justification for most people to use it instead of OpenGL. If it is so powerful (which I think it is), then it shouldn't need to be forced. I am just one of those guys so used to OpenGL that they won't use anything else :P
Also, I don't see an "Irrlicht" header in SFML, but I see an "OpenGL" one.
But fine, if OpenGL is still off the table, I will probably compete regardless.
-
IMO, allowing raw OpenGL removes the "Hey, look what you can do with SFML!" factor. It's not an SFML game anymore, it's an OpenGL game.
-
We could have a SFML integration rating or something, or just ask those who rate it to keep in mind the extent to which SFML was used. Let the community decide if the developer was cheesing the use of SFML.
+1
SFML has more potential than just the graphics library for drawing. It is a great library for OpenGL, with its classes handling texture and shader loading. Sure, its graphics library is great and most of the time will leave no reason to use raw OpenGL, but I think that limiting the jam to just 2d games would be a bad idea.
The Audio library in sfml is designed for 3d use. I think sfml is a great library for 3d as well as 2d. Plus saying no OpenGL is hard to really define ( #define NoOpengGL :P ), for example you could use sfml's texture and shader loading, which I use along with raw OpenGL. is that raw OpenGL or sfml?
This is why I like the idea of "grading" on integration of sfml. I think it would be a lot more impressive to others if the community came out with a cool 3D game, even if they didn't integrate sfml as much a a 2d platformer. Showing that this library is a viable alternative to SDL as an OpenGL windowing library is just as important imho as showing another demonstration of its amazing graphics.
I think people should be graded on how well they integrate sfml. using the graphics library should be a bonus, but not a law.
-
We could have a SFML integration rating or something, or just ask those who rate it to keep in mind the extent to which SFML was used. Let the community decide if the developer was cheesing the use of SFML.
I second this idea. It would certainly help prevent not-made-here syndrome.
One of the cool features of SFML is that you can so easily integrate it with plain OpenGL! I think this feature should be advertised like any other. SFML includes OpenGL integration, so using OpenGL is still using a feature of SFML. If SFML provides something, you should be able to use it.
OpenGL integration is definitely not one of SFML's strong points. It has so many issues, like using SFML-graphics with GL. *glares at Laurent*
Others are right in saying it's an SFML game jam, not a simple game jam. One of the points of the jam is to show what SFML really is, and if we don't use its best feature, we'd be killing that bit.
-
I'd say technical aspects, besides the game needing to use SFML, shouldn't be that strongly rated. As such, it's ok with me if you wan't to code your game using a little (or a lot) of OpenGL. Typically, using OpenGL also takes longer to code than the SFML counterparts, so I don't really see an unfair advantage there, considering you still get the same 72 hours.
There are thousands of libraries out there, we can't go deciding on a case by case basis which ones are allowed.
Maybe having one arbitrary but simple rule would be good. Something like "You can't use windows other than the one(s) instantiated by SFML."
-
I like the idea that only SFML is used, but maybe just because I never used it a lot with my SFML projects. I like the idea that it would demonstrate the power of SFML only using SFML.
-
Rating on SFML integration is unrealistic, it assumes that everyone releases the source code of their games and that people have the time and will to go through every bit of it to determine the extent to which SFML is used, which would likely vary greatly by experience and opinion anyway.
I don't use OpenGL but I understand why someone who is proficient in it would rather use it than use SFML's graphics library, however that is not the point of this Jam. I think we need to make it very clear that this is to showcase the quality and speed in which you can make games using SFML without the use of other graphical libraries.
If someone wants to use Box2D or Boost or whatever else I feel that's pretty reasonable, but use of any other library for rendering and/or based on SFML2 (OpenGL, SFGUI, TGUI, Thor) should not be allowed, in my opinion.
-
What about personal utility libraries? I have a lot of libraries that wrap SFML constructs or have non-SFML utils. Not being able to use them would just mean rewrite them from scratch for the jam :P
-
Yeah I think we shouldn't forbid personal librairies and perhaps even Thor&co.
I've a personal librairy, if I'm doing the jam but personal librairies are forbidden, what I'll do during the jam is to re-write it... Games will be better if we can focus on gameplay and graphics implementation, rather than on Scene Tree, Screens or logs...
-
Yeah I think we shouldn't forbid personal librairies and perhaps even Thor&co.
I've a personal librairy, if I'm doing the jam but personal librairies are forbidden, what I'll do during the jam is to re-write it... Games will be better if we can focus on gameplay and graphics implementation, rather than on Scene Tree, Screens or logs...
This, we shouldn't restrict it to 100% raw sfml imo
-
Thought I'd give another little update!
Hopefully the rules will be finalized before the voting for the theme starts. I'll try to post another draft today to get more feedback. While I don't think we'll be able to make everyone happy when it comes to what should/shouldn't be used, I definitely want to get as many people as possible to be happy while still being as fair as possible across the board.
And please don't forget to keep submitting those ideas for themes!
Theme Submission Thread (http://en.sfml-dev.org/forums/index.php?topic=12304.0)
-
So,
Any news about when and with what rules ?
-
Any news about when and with what rules ?
This was written a week ago or something, not sure if Jebbs plans on using it or not:
http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/fWiITKCWJE/GyFhrZshPZ
-
I would love to participate in a Game Jam, as I am taking my first baby steps with SFML, it would be great to try and push myself as far as possible with the little stuff I know so far.
-
I was asking because as soon as there is a fixed date and rules, I can translate it on the fench forum.
-
Hey, Lo-X. Sorry about my not posting anything about it. I've been crazy busy lately. Poor timing, right? Anyways, Aster has been helping me out with some stuff, including:
This was written a week ago or something, not sure if Jebbs plans on using it or not:
http://piratepad.net/ep/pad/view/fWiITKCWJE/GyFhrZshPZ
I think the only thing I was thinking of changing was the time between jams. 3 months might be too close together, but I'd like to hear more feedback on that. Personally, I would probably go with 4, but damn it game jams are fun!
Also, scoring might need to be left out for the first one to give us time to get some kind of system set up to allow the community to score submissions. The dates are still 08/02-08/04. As far as actual start time goes, I think there were suggestions for one, but I'm not picky on that.
-
Who is part of the jury ("admins")?
And you didn't mention OpenGL explicitly. In this thread, the general conclusion was not to allow it, since it would then be an OpenGL game contest and not an SFML one.
-
What remains unclear is the policy about contents :
- Must contents (audio, graphics but not fonts/intruments sample) be created during the contest ?
-> If not, can content be get from other sources as long as they are license free ?
- Is it a ONE GUY contest or teams are allowed ?
- Can porting be done after the 72hours as long as sources have been comitted in time ?
A practical question too : how do you plan to make people post their executable and sources ? On a forum thread for executables and MP (+thread if open-source) for sources ?
-
Who is part of the jury ("admins")?
And you didn't mention OpenGL explicitly. In this thread, the general conclusion was not to allow it, since it would then be an OpenGL game contest and not an SFML one.
Well, if we get some sort of system where the games are judged by the community, then you can ignore the admin part since source code will be available and people can check to make sure SFML was used.
As far as OpenGL goes, I feel like we should be able to allow it. SFML's graphics only allows 2D stuff. It would be silly to not let people use 3D if they want to.
What remains unclear is the policy about contents :
- Must contents (audio, graphics but not fonts/intruments sample) be created during the contest ?
-> If not, can content be get from other sources as long as they are license free ?
Audio and graphics must be created during those 72 hours. I think this is pretty standard for game jams though.
- Is it a ONE GUY contest or teams are allowed ?
It can be done alone, or in a group of two people, but that must be stated when you submit.
- Can porting be done after the 72hours as long as sources have been comitted in time ?
Absolutely!
A practical question too : how do you plan to make people post their executable and sources ? On a forum thread for executables and MP (+thread if open-source) for sources ?
Posting a link to where the sources are is plenty. They can just have it all uploaded to github or something, and then just include a link to their repo.
Executables are a little tricky, but I would be fine with a link to them as well as long as the link contains everything it needs to run.
I am going to make time to make sure we have finalized rules today. So far the only thing that will be left out of this first jam is going to be scoring.
-
3D games often use SDL even if they don't at all intend on using 2D because it allows 'easy input and window and context creation' and so on. Allowing it could send nice message to people who don't know SFML. And you have to admit that if someone knows OpenGL and can code something really nice and 3D in such short time without problems she is better than people who struggle with just using SFML.Graphics.
-
Thanks Jebbs for the answers =)
I guess the time will be part of your update of today =)
I added everything in this thread to the french forum.
-
No news ? Nothing about the time the jam starts ? Would be nice to know that before friday =)
-
Working on it right now actually! I'll post it pretty soon!
-
I think I covered everything needed for this particular game jam. Once we have a method of scoring I'll tackle that beast again, but for now here are the rules and info. Let me know if there are still questions/things I missed.
Time:
The jam will start 15 UTC August 2nd and end 72 hours later on August 4th.
Theme:
The theme will be announced 14 UTC, allowing people a little time to plan for their game so that most of the 72 hours can be spent creating it.
Submission Info:
A link to source is required when submitting. (open source is good for the soul, man.)
A link to a playable version of the game for either Windows, Mac, or Linux is required when submitting. This must include the executable and all assets/extras needed to run the game.
Games with NSFW or shocking content must be marked as such.
You are allowed to submit as early as you want, but there is now reward for doing so.
Rules:
1. You can work on a team of two, or by yourself. Must be stated when submitting.
2. You only have 72 hours to create both the code and the audio/graphic assets of your project. Pre-made fonts are allowed.
3. Game must be based on the theme ,but how the theme is interpreted is up to you!
4. Any programming language may be used, as long as SFML(or one of its bindings) is used.
5. External libraries are allowed, but not SFML's competitors, such as GLFW, SDL, Allegro, etc. The use of OpenGL is allowed, however.
6. We encourage the use any of the code posted in https://github.com/SFML/SFML/wiki/Sources, you may bind it to your language of choice, as long as you give credit to the original author.
7. Porting to other OS's after the 72 hour mark is allowed and encouraged!
Scoring:
For the first SFML Game Jam, there will not be any kind of score presented. Just go out and have a blast!
-
The use of OpenGL is allowed, however.
Despite all the arguments in this thread? Note that after the discussion, the majority of people stated they would forbid OpenGL; those who were in favor of it had no arguments besides personal preference. Please don't just ignore the discussion here to enforce a questionable rule.
As mentioned, it would be a nice opportunity to show some pure SFML games. There are masses of OpenGL games, why focus on them in the SFML community?
-
Where will the theme be displayed ? In this thread or the theme-relative one ?
-
those who were in favor of it had no arguments besides personal preference
3D games often use SDL even if they don't at all intend on using 2D because it allows 'easy input and window and context creation' and so on. Allowing it could send nice message to people who don't know SFML.
There are masses of OpenGL games, why focus on them in the SFML community?
Because that's what SFML.Window is for, it's replacement candidate for GLFW, GLUT and SDL for context and inputs and it's useless without OpenGL.
You are basically forbidding/sabotaging one of the 4 main packages by a rule that really says 'if you use sf::Window you can't display a thing in it'.
Window is meant for OpenGL, it's not like you're connecting whatever-3drendering-engine to SFML, this is intended use for that package.
-
With the same argumentation, one could say SFML.Graphics is useless if you handle graphics in OpenGL.
There are many libraries that provide access to OpenGL, SFML is in no way specific here. In order to push SFML, one should focus on the strenghts and the differences from other libraries. Among those is the Graphics package, which allows very efficient high-level and low-level access to graphics. It's probably the most often used module, and with its clean API it is the SFML flagship; not using it would be a missed opportunity.
-
But it doesn't allow 3D and it never will, and it's not like everyone will suddenly use OpenGL and hide the fact SFML has good Graphics module just because it's allowed, they don't know OpenGL at all, I don't know it at all, I don't use SFML.Window. Graphics is the most often used module because OpenGL is not for newbies and audio and network are second rate concerns that can be added later into a game, game with just graphics is ok, game with just network and audio isn't, many people just start with SFML.Graphics and don't ever get past that stage to semi-finished game, let alone get to stage where they use Audio, Network or OpenGL. People don't want OpenGL because they are scared that good OpenGL programmer will come and mop the floor with them and their 2D games with his 3D game. I honestly doubt someone will do something nice with OpenGL in such short time but the rule is just controversial 'use Graphics module, its nice and clean and easy to use' then why is it forced?
-
The jam will start 15 UTC August 2nd and end 72 hours later on August 4th.
To my understanding, there is only 48 hours between August 2nd and August 4th.
Did I missed something ?
-
Nothing to do with actual OpenGL discussion, but it would be nice if some of us were making a livrestream.
I'll probably use twitch.tv to stream me as much as possible. I'll have a #Ludum Dare tag since it needs a game name and names are pre-defined.
here is the link to the channel : http://www.twitch.tv/acaciafr
Note : I'm french so if I can understand english, I've a terrible accent :p
The jam will start 15 UTC August 2nd and end 72 hours later on August 4th.
To my understanding, there is only 48 hours between August 2nd and August 4th.
Did I missed something ?
Well spoted, I think it's ending monday the 5th instead, no ?
-
FRex, I think it has been discussed enough. Arguments for both sides have been brought -- focusing on "using OpenGL for graphic doesn't show SFML's capabilities/it's not a SFML game" vs. "SFML allows the usage of OpenGL, so we must allow it"). There were more arguments against OpenGL, and in my impression also more people supporting a pure SFML game. Nevertheless a single person eventually decided to include OpenGL (without pointing out the reasons for this decision). That's what I find a bit sad; the discussion in this thread is pointless if the community's requests are ignored. Thus, I hope for the next jam there will be more people in charge of the organization and the rules, and the process will be more democratic.
That's just my opinion. Nevertheless, thanks for organizing this jam, it's really a nice idea. I wish everybody who participates good luck! :)
-
That's just my opinion. Nevertheless, thanks for organizing this jam, it's really a nice idea. I wish everybody who participates good luck! :)
Ill kick your asses into the ground !
Hum... I wish I'll finish my game in the 72h, that's a great challenge.
Indeed that's a nice idea and I thank Jebbs for handling it. And indeed more people in charge would also mean less work for one person.
Good luck everybody !
-
The jam will start 15 UTC August 2nd and end 72 hours later on August 4th.
To my understanding, there is only 48 hours between August 2nd and August 4th.
Did I missed something ?
Wowee! How'd I miss that?
Yeah, it will end 72 hours after the start on August 2nd, which I guess would be august 5th. Hopefully this doesn't mess anyone up!
And about OpenGL, the reason I ultimately decided to allow it is because I thought it would be a ridiculous restriction to force people to only make 2D games. That's about it, actually. I didn't mean to ignore anyone and I hope no one feels that way! With the jam starting tomorrow I just went with my gut on it so that we had a final say. After this jam I would be totally open to going over any rules people want to change, add, etc. I'm also ok with a committee of some kind!
Indeed that's a nice idea and I thank Jebbs for handling it. And indeed more people in charge would also mean less work for one person.
You're welcome! To be honest, it wasn't really that much work. My math professor just enjoys giving me more homework than I can really handle so I spend all my free time doing that. :P
Thanks to everyone that helped me out too! I hope this will be the stat of something awesome!
I'll be starting a thread tomorrow to announce the theme, in roughly 11 hours from now! After that I'll start a thread for submissions. Livestreams are welcome! I enjoy watching those.
-
I won't be able to participate in this jam, but I wish everybody the best of luck! I'll definitly try to be in the next one.
I think it's a good idea to collect feedback after the jams and change the rules based on it and some more democratic decisions :) never the less thanks to jebbs for taking the lead and organizing this!