Android/iOS "Soon"

[jagt]

Hi.

Really excited about the upcoming iOS/Android release. Now we can have a C++ game library on mobile platform with sane API

I'm wondering if audio will be support on iOS, since the libsndfile is LGPL. I've seen a post earlier says that it might be missing. What's the current situation?

Another thing is that will sfml ui be ported too?

Thanks!

[zsbzsb]

Another thing is that will sfml ui be ported too?

You mean like TGUI and SFGUI? Well they are not official libraries, so it would be up to the authors of those libraries.

[Laurent]

After I wrote to the author of libsndfile he said that he would contact all the copyright holders (there seems to be a lot), and make a license exception that would allow static linking on iOS. I'm still waiting for news, so at the moment there's no audio on iOS.

[FRex]

What about OpenAL, doesn't Apple's core audio provide same API or is it missing too because soft is LGPL?

[Laurent]

Apple provides its own implementation of OpenAL for iOS.

[wintertime]

As you are talking already about those LGPL libraries and the licensing complications here; I read the LGPL, but didn't really understand all the legalese, still I guess one would have to include a file with the text of the license and also source code of these libraries. I didn't see these things in the SFML github although the dll files are in there which confuses me?

[FRex]

Apple provides its own implementation of OpenAL for iOS.

I know/had vague idea they do. So just file loading is missing.. that's awkward..

[eXpl0it3r]

still I guess one would have to include a file with the text of the license and also source code of these libraries. I didn't see these things in the SFML github although the dll files are in there which confuses me?

Not sure if you have to include the fulll license file, but the various licenses are mentioned in SFML's license.txt.

[Ixrec]

As you are talking already about those LGPL libraries and the licensing complications here; I read the LGPL, but didn't really understand all the legalese, still I guess one would have to include a file with the text of the license and also source code of these libraries. I didn't see these things in the SFML github although the dll files are in there which confuses me?

I spent a stupid amount of time reading up on all the details of the GPL and LGPL so I can probably answer some of this stuff.

Technically, I think SFML is supposed to include a full copy of the LGPL text in its distribution (LGPL section 4b, rationale explained here), but that's the only requirement it might be missing.  The main point of the LGPL is ensuring that anyone who uses the software is free to replace the LGPL'd library with a modified version if they so choose.  This usually means either providing source code for the whole program, object files for the whole program, or dynamically linking the library.  You don't need to do more than one of those.  People usually pick dynamic linking for LGPL libraries because that's much easier than providing source code or object files for the whole program; if anyone wants the library's source code you can just point them to the library's own page.

With GPL things are much simpler because any program using any GPL'd code must itself be under the GPL.  An LGPL'd library can be use without putting your whole program under LGPL, as long as you do dynamic linking or one of the other options.  Of course, a lot of us don't want those restrictions.  A library designed for making 2D games that didn't allow you to sell* the games you made with it would be rather strange.

*Technically you can sell (L)GPL'd code, but all buyers have the legal right to redistribute it for free if they want, so it kinda doesn't count.

[FRex]

*Technically you can sell (L)GPL'd code, but all buyers have the legal right to redistribute it for free if they want, so it kinda doesn't count.

There are (very very few) GPL games that sell 'content' not code. And without scripts, textures, configs, maps, images, music and what not the thing might be useless so.

dynamically linking the library

That's apparently(?) a problem for iOS apps, maybe Hiura will know. iOS is closed as hell, even App Guidelines on their page requires sign in(=99$/year for being in their developer program).

[Ixrec]

*Technically you can sell (L)GPL'd code, but all buyers have the legal right to redistribute it for free if they want, so it kinda doesn't count.

There are (very very few) GPL games that sell 'content' not code. And without scripts, textures, configs, maps, images, music and what not the thing might be useless so.

Yeah, it's pretty clear that those things count as "data" and thus the GPL doesn't apply to them, but then you need to distribute them with the GPL code to have a complete game, so you need to keep the source code for that publicly available somewhere, with clear version labels so everyone can get the one matching their version of the game...it quickly turns into the kind of thing no one should have to think about when developing a game.  You should publish source code because you feel like it, not because your libraries force you to.

Since SFML uses zlib/png, none of us ever have to think about this stuff, much less make complicated ideological decisions about whether our software or parts thereof should be "free as in speech"/copyleft'd, or major design decisions based largely on circumventing license restrictions we don't want "infecting" our program, and so on.  And I greatly appreciate that Laurent and the sndfile guys are going to the trouble of trying to make it this nice and simple with the iOS port too.  Thank you!

[FRex]

The problem is GPL(and by extension BSD and zlib style licenses) might end up being hated by devs/corps/whoever because it cock blocks a platform to ensure freedom of users that already chose a walled garden and do not give remote shit about privacy, freedom or what language, tech, OS or license their software is in...

Also no-one-tells-me-what-to-do attitude comes into play, that's one of reasons I dislike GPL. If I got good money out of SFML powered stuff I'd probably donate to it(and to other libraries I use too, of course) a tiny bit of my profit and open the code a while later to help others(and of course, in turn, make SFML better, more popular and make my experience with it more marketable and profitable, after all, most of these profits would go to me, I'm not charity), but just because I want to give something back and not feel like a leech, not because I was forced to by annoying license that protects freedom of users that don't give a shit anyway.

But if forced to by something superior(ie. id tech games that use it for free) or by own choice(ie. Frogatto) GPL for games makes sense, no pirate is going to compile your game and pirate assets, they will just pirate (cracked) exe and content together and never look at the code just like they would with a closed source game.

[Ixrec]

How do BSD and zlib do that?  LGPL is the one that turns into GPL on iOS, and GPL is the one that "infects" all projects using it so that it becomes useless to for-profit entities.  You're free to do whatever you want with zlib code, including proprietary/commercial projects.

Note that GPL makes piracy a legal right.  That's a big step beyond merely being unable to stop pirates.

Most of what you said I completely agree with though.  I don't want licenses telling me what to do; if I'm going to support the free software movement then I'll go support it, but I don't want it making a legal morass out of my silly little 2D platforming games.

[FRex]

They don't but devs who don't understand free vs. open difference might end up hating all FOSS licenses, including OSI ones that GNU doesn't approve, when it's just (L)GPL cock blocking certain uses.

As for non tech people, good luck finding one that understands the difference between open source and free software, cares about license/language his software is in and doesn't think Stallman is as stupid as certain mainstream media try to portrait him. Really, really good luck. Ignorant braindead FUD of non tech people also applies to everything that is remotely FOSS.

Sometimes even techs act like morons and spread misinformation, recently I seen comment(of course, untrackable to actual person, under an online chat handle) claiming that he is

web server admin of a huge server for years and no one ever uses Linux for servers because Windows is more secure, runs faster and Linux has no support or guarantees at all

People like that should get punched in the face by every Red Hat, Novell and Oracle employee. Twice. (That's over a quarter of million of punches, might not be enough for toughest trolls).

[Ixrec]

Well now you're just ranting about stupid/ignorant people being stupid/ignorant.  If someone chooses to hate all FOSS licenses, then they're choosing to never use any software they don't pay money for.  I don't think there's ever going to be a risk of devs shunning all free-as-in-beer software on the planet; not having to pay money is just too huge an incentive.  Whenever scaring people off is a concern, I'm pretty sure you just have to say "free to use even for commercial projects" and that's the end of that.  Also I think portrayals of Stallman are the least of our PR worries with non-tech people, since many of them still think GNU/Linux is a command-line OS.

Maybe we should try to get back on topic.  I'm still really looking forward to getting to use mobile SFML, so here's a stupid question: I know on Android there's a "debug mode" that lets you run programs you make on your PC.  Does iOS have a debug mode or do you have to pay the $99 before you can even test stuff or how does that work?