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Poll

Should OpenGL usage be allowed for the SFML Game Jam

Yes
34 (50.7%)
No
33 (49.3%)

Total Members Voted: 67

Author Topic: Open GL - Yes/No  (Read 11019 times)

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zsbzsb

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2013, 07:35:51 pm »
Rule 5 get's changed to: "External libraries are allowed, but not SFML's competitors, such as GLFW, SDL, Allegro, etc."

And we add a new rule after it stating: "Everything graphical that SFML is capable of must use SFML. OpenGL is only allowed for things that are outside the capabilities of SFML's graphics package."

I agree with this change. I think the wording should be something like "All drawing that SFML is capable of must be drawn with SFML, all other unsupported drawing can use OpenGL." Word it however you want  ;)
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Jebbs

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2013, 12:02:35 am »
Quote
"Everything graphical that SFML is capable of must use SFML. OpenGL is only allowed for things that are outside the capabilities of SFML's graphics package."
= Goodbye SFGUI cus of GL renderer? :P

Where does SFGUI use GL? I've never used it so I don't know it that well.

Honestly, I think people are making this into a bigger deal than it is. It's a Game Jam for making games and having fun, and it's the SFML Game Jam. People who join are, on whole, gonna be using SFML. To make games. In a jam.

Really, if you have to do something maintain a "spirit of the jam" clause and reserve the right to penalise games that are felt to have broken that spirit.

Maybe, but having rules and structure is important too.

Rule 5 get's changed to: "External libraries are allowed, but not SFML's competitors, such as GLFW, SDL, Allegro, etc."

And we add a new rule after it stating: "Everything graphical that SFML is capable of must use SFML. OpenGL is only allowed for things that are outside the capabilities of SFML's graphics package."

I agree with this change. I think the wording should be something like "All drawing that SFML is capable of must be drawn with SFML, all other unsupported drawing can use OpenGL." Word it however you want  ;)

Yeah, not really sure how to word it exactly. I just got back from a work trip so I haven't had a lot of time to think about it until now, but I'm open to other suggestions too.
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FRex

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2013, 12:06:51 am »
Quote
Where does SFGUI use GL? I've never used it so I don't know it that well.
Everywhere.
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binary1248

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2013, 09:46:56 pm »
Quote
Where does SFGUI use GL? I've never used it so I don't know it that well.
Everywhere.
... where it is needed, to keep framerates decent after experiencing 30FPS in our test app after the SFML graphics API rewrite.
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FRex

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2013, 10:02:53 pm »
Doesn't matter, there is no exception to this rule for stuff that SFML can do, the majority minority of voters(as shown above) decided to not allow OpenGL. :P
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 10:05:37 pm by FRex »
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Jebbs

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2013, 11:07:42 pm »
Quote
Where does SFGUI use GL? I've never used it so I don't know it that well.
Everywhere.
... where it is needed, to keep framerates decent after experiencing 30FPS in our test app after the SFML graphics API rewrite.

I'm not sure if anyone used SFGUI in any of the, but I know that having a GUI system they could use might make some things easier. Should performance reasons be an allowed reason to use OpenGL?

I like the suggestion I made about the rule changes, but I don't want to go ahead and make a change unless I know everyone is happy with it. :P


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binary1248

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2013, 11:14:04 pm »
Let's put it this way... if not using OpenGL causes the player to suffer because of the game running at 2 FPS then... there is no other way to get it done. Maybe the author envisioned something that was a bit too "big" for SFML, but that shouldn't prevent them from creating something awesome during the jam... As already stated, using OpenGL is a risk. You stick more time into your graphics, but it will run as fast as it needs to to be enjoyable, if you manage to finish on time...
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Jebbs

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2013, 11:31:46 pm »
Yeah, I agree. Obviously the focus of this jam should be SFML, but I think the priority is still to make great games.

Let's try this instead.

Just like before, rule 5 get's changed to: "External libraries are allowed, but not SFML's competitors, such as GLFW, SDL, Allegro, etc."

And the new rule becomes: "Everything graphical that SFML is capable of must use SFML. OpenGL is allowed for more complicated graphics, such as 3D, and for performance reasons."

I'm still not quite satisfied with the wording, but I like it better. Also, I think we can let "performance reasons" be left up to the participants. Like you said, using OpenGL is a gamble. They can decide if it makes sense to use it to get that performance boost or not.
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Jebbs

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2013, 08:13:38 am »
I'm going to try to think about the wording a little more before anything actually happens, but if no-one has any objections to this change then it'll be something that I'll update in the rules.
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zsbzsb

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2014, 06:29:00 am »
Jebbs,

We were discussing the entire OpenGL rule (yea this came up again over on IRC)... Anyways I think I came up with a good solution to this entire OpenGL issue. As we all can see from the poll it is almost split 50/50 in the community about allowing OpenGL.

Now having this conversation on IRC it seems like disallowing OpenGL is a turn off for lots of people, but yet allowing it can also (depending on how it is used) can take away from entire idea of an "SFML game jam". What I think should happen is the rules be opened up and allow OpenGL as long as SFML is used in some way (albeit even if it is just used as a window manager). After all SFML is not solely focused on graphics...

Since the rules have been opened to include everyone the last thing would be to require the person to simply state, "I/We have used pure SFML rendering" OR "I/We have used SFML and some/all raw OpenGL for rendering" on the game entry. (or maybe have a small flag in that fancy new site  ;))

Another option would be to simply require at least two components of SFML to be used. Such as window management and audio, window management and networking, and so on. This would allow any combination of SFML and/or OpenGL while making sure it is still in the spirit of using SFML.  ;D

After more thought, I believe simply requiring at least two components of SFML is the way to go, this will eliminate any complicated questions regarding use of raw OpenGL while still allowing great libraries that utilize OpenGL to be used.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 06:43:41 am by zsbzsb »
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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2014, 06:43:29 am »
Since the rules have been opened to include everyone the last thing would be to require the person to simply state, "I/We have used pure SFML rendering" OR "I/We have used SFML and some/all raw OpenGL for rendering" on the game entry. (or maybe have a small flag in that fancy new site  ;))

Another option would be to simply require at least two components of SFML to be used. Such as window management and audio, window management and networking, and so on. This would allow any combination of SFML and/or OpenGL while making sure it is still in the spirit of using SFML.  ;D

I am for either or both suggested rules. This would keep the game jam loosely structured and fun (participants won't have so much concern with breaking the rules) and it would continue to showcase SFML great features of SFML. I might change the wording of the second suggestion in some way to reflect that participants must use two APIs from SFML, and not just two classes from the same header.

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2014, 06:56:08 am »
I am undecided as to whether or not allowing OpenGL is a good idea.

However, zsbzsb's most recent suggestion of "totally removing anything about opengl from the rules and simply requiring 2 components of sfml" does sound like the way to go if OpenGL is to be allowed.
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Nexus

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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2014, 02:24:04 pm »
However, zsbzsb's most recent suggestion of "totally removing anything about opengl from the rules and simply requiring 2 components of sfml" does sound like the way to go if OpenGL is to be allowed.
You can't enforce the use of SFML by rules like that, it's easy to use tiny parts.

I still think the SFML Game Jam would be the opportunity to show to the world how much one can achieve with SFML within a very short time. It demonstrates that even without OpenGL knowledge, it's possible to develop nice games. This is the whole point behind the SFML Graphics module: Abstracting low-level operations and OpenGL while still remaining very flexible.

Since OpenGL was allowed last time, why don't we make a test run without OpenGL this time? Then we have two scenarios to compare and to take our lessons from.
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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2014, 06:04:03 pm »
Here is my thinking:

There are no prizes, people would join the jam just for fun. So why the restrictions? I would go with an honor system. There is nothing to win, so there is no reason to be so strict on the rules. Just have a nice get-together where people use SFML because it is good, not because of some rules. We should say "the game should use SFML" of course, and leave the usage thereof to the scrutiny of the community. Let the community rate it down if it doesn't use SFML to their liking.

Some of you said that those using OpenGL would "mop the floor" with the others. I don't understand this. If they are so good with OpenGL, you can bet that they will be good with SFML too. Also, if they are good, then they deserve to get more points! Knowledge should be rewarded! It IS a competition, right?
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Re: Open GL - Yes/No
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2014, 07:10:46 pm »
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