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Author Topic: Game Maker flooding the market with crap?  (Read 20430 times)

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CyanPrime

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Game Maker flooding the market with crap?
« on: June 08, 2010, 08:00:52 pm »
Now I'm a C++ programmer (Also Java, C#, HTML, and PHP) and when I make a game I like making it from scratch, and with real code. Not drag and drop /scripting crap. I dislike Game Maker games and RPG Maker games because they're half-assed. It's like using a templet, or Dreamweaver for a website. Sure, a Game Maker game can be good, but is it worth it at that point? No, it isn't. you could have took two weeks more to learn C++ and make the game all on your own, and made it eat a lot less resources. There's just no excuse for half-assing  a game with Game Maker or RPG Maker.

Not only that, but because of Game Maker and RPG maker the market is over saturated with crap. Remember what happened to the mainstream game market when this happened? That's right. The Game Crash in the 80's. We could be looking at a Indie Game Crash because of Engines that encourage half-assed development.

Remember kids: Just say no to Game Maker.

panithadrum

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Game Maker flooding the market with crap?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2010, 08:31:32 pm »
Well, I have ease of programming thanks to RPG maker and then Game Maker. I think that they are good tools to start learning how a program must be done!

G.

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Game Maker flooding the market with crap?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2010, 08:43:24 pm »
Some people are interested in the process of creating an actual game not in the building of an engine.
If they make crap with game makers, they will also make crap with C++. Or, may not even be able to simply make something. (Especially with only 2 weeks of learning)

I guess you have the same opinion about your old blog made with Wordpress, or your forum made with FluxBB, or your thing made with MUGEN. If I understood you correctly, all of these are crap. :)

CyanPrime

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Game Maker flooding the market with crap?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2010, 09:27:33 pm »
Quote from: "G."
Some people are interested in the process of creating an actual game not in the building of an engine.
If they make crap with game makers, they will also make crap with C++. Or, may not even be able to simply make something. (Especially with only 2 weeks of learning)

I guess you have the same opinion about your old blog made with Wordpress, or your forum made with FluxBB, or your thing made with MUGEN. If I understood you correctly, all of these are crap. :)


the MUGEN thing was crap, but it was just a character for a game, not a game itself. More comparable to a mod. The FluxBB forums are temp until I finish King's Gate.

But yeah, I guess you have a point. If even here I'm getting told I'm wrong than maybe I actually am. But it doesn't help that Game Maker runs like shit on my PC.

I dunno though, I just think that if you're going to be reguarded as a hero for making a Game that you should actually have a programming background. I mean whats the point in learning C++ if I can just drag and drop crap like PhotoShop and make a game.

G.

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Game Maker flooding the market with crap?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2010, 09:58:23 pm »
Well, the main point is that people just want to play games. They don't care if they were made with C++ or with a game maker software, as long as it's fun to play. You're making games to get them bought/played/loved by gamers isn't it ? Not to please other programmers on the internet. ^^
Therefore game makers can't be that bad. ;)

According to me, generic art is the big drawback of some game maker softwares. Hell, I hate how those games made with RPG-Maker all look the same.

Nexus

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Game Maker flooding the market with crap?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2010, 11:56:27 pm »
Quote from: "CyanPrime"
you could have took two weeks more to learn C++ and make the game all on your own
It takes years until one knows C++ well enough to develop solid and good games. I think the difficulty and the huge effort required to learn a complex programming language is not a negligible reason why "half-assed" software like Game Maker exists. Eventually, the programmer is mostly better off, since he has more possibilities available.

But anyway, what's the point of this thread? Propaganda blaming Game Maker & Co.? Just let anyone use the tool of his choice, and feel a bit better being a real programmer.
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petersvp

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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 03:32:12 am »
Well, as me:

I started with Pascal, then Game Maker, then C++/OpenGL/SFML

Each middlewares have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Now I don't and will never use Game Maker again.
Game Maker is interpreted and SLOW! It can not handle big games.
However, it is EXCELLENT kickstart for young and newbie programmers. Game Maker especially tries to teach people to object-oriented programming, as it is object oriented. But yes, serious games tends to run very slow! Same as the rest.

Slow, but Game Maker is unlimited. You can make even an antivirus software with it (that will be very slow anyway...)

That is, SLOW, but feature-rich

On the other end, RPG maker...

RPG maker is fast, even more faster than Game Maker, but is feature-limited, and changing default graphics is terrible.

As a experienced game designer I can tell that these tools - RPG Maker and Game Maker, are PERFECT for Game PROTOTYPING!

You develop your prototype in 2 days, test it, then start building it with real, optimized engine or writing your own. So I am and never will be against game maker and such kind of middlewares. Just if they don't get overused!

If somebody wants to make specific kind of game, for example, platform game, why not to use some application that will allow him to concentrate on the game design?

Well, everything have its own disadvantages and advantages...

Now, the truth:

Often when you start writing your own game, you start writing some special tools, like:
image editors, texture/material creators, World and map editors, Physics editors, everything from scratch...
That Game Maker and RPG maker gives you for free of coding...

You will soon see, that you lost about a year with reinventing the wheel,
it took a year to get working Example level...
while some guy created 2-3 very well designed and programmed games with Game Maker, or some other middleware / tool, then got some bucks with them (Because Game Maker allows you to sell and make money with it!)

Yes, sad story.... And these games or looks same, or are good, but run slowly...

What will be the fix?

The fix of this problem will be if we have some GOOD, really good game making SDK/IDE, that makes REAL C++ code for us...

Well, for now, there is NOT any, except for all professional engines there, like Source, id Tech, Epic and proven ones that costs millions to get license for...

And some free, like SFML, that really helps us create the game core, but aren't enough.

Well, my current project is game making software that will compete with all these Game Maker, cickteam, and Construct over here....
I am working of IDE that can help developers make their games faster, easier, and concentrate on the design, but, instead of Game Maker, will generate fast code and most likely, will be open-source.

When you complete the game pototyping, you can export that to C++ and work on it, or, if you are happy enough, just compile it.

That is, you plan and design your classes, then, with them, you design the game levels, maps itself, then, after you are done, your game is optimized, exported as C++ classes and code and compiled under Linux, Windows, Mac or whatever...

And I am VERY HAPPY that SFML will get into such Game creation kit.
Basically, the engine template code will be SFML + Bullet + OpenGL, while the editor will be wxWidgets + OpenGL application.

Finally, blame the noobs, not the game creation kits...
Look, Even Microsoft Visual Studio does non-standard stuff, allowing you just to DRAW your controls into your form...

Application development evolves...
Now there are many ways to develop applications - drawing them, setting actions with mouse, and adding code by hand...

In the future, even natural languages will be used for programming...

That is. IMO.

Ashenwraith

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Game Maker flooding the market with crap?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2010, 03:49:32 pm »
Well the problem with the tools is actually the game market.

Like SFML is pretty good for Steam only games (WITH NO MAC OS SUPPORT RIGHT NOW), but the biggest paying market is Xbox Live followed by PS3.

The reason I didn't include the Wii is because the Wii specializes in motion gimmick games and if you look at the sales those are the only games that make money ie, if(!WiiMote||!Nintendo){ sales=poor;}

Cell phone and flash games are casual games users expect to be free/ad driven. Sure you can succeed, but good luck. You probably have to churn out lots and lots of free games before you can hook users.

So as a hobby developer the best thing you can do is make games with XNA and port them to Steam (or the reverse). The best tools for this would be some sort of XNA/SFML/SFML 3D (Ogre?) suite.

For SFML to be great as a media library it needs to be able to plug into 2D/3D engines (existing technology) and handle basic file/data/management/input/sound/etc.

petersvp

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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2010, 03:11:26 am »
I am NOT XNA fan, however, XNA most likely means XBOX...

My IDE is planned to be multiplatform... for now...

And, while multiplatform, there is a serious problem... I am writing both the engine and editor in wxWidgets+openGL...

The problem there is with XBOX360.

As I already told in my previous post, the IDE will generate GNU/C++ code for the game project, and then compile it.

I plan to implement profiles and reinplement the whole engine in various languages, so the IDE to be able to generate code for both OpenGL and Direct3D, C/C++, etc, that then can be modified and tweaked.

However, generating and compiling DirectX/XNA ap0plications should require MS Visual studio installed, so my IDE to be able to compile it.

else it will only be able to export source code for DirectX (but will be fully featured for OpenGL, as I can destribute or force the ide to install Mingw/GCC)

So the game market is very difficult stuff... These serious things like Flash are ported everywhere...

but Microsoft is still sticked to DirectX on XBOX, and I can't find some openGL wrapper for xbox...

Most likely, from the beginning I will only target PC/MAC and OpenGL / non SMFL based stuff...

Recruit0

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Game Maker flooding the market with crap?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 07:24:13 pm »
I actually think GameMaker is useful in a way. I think it's been stated previously here, but it's good for newbies in game programming to start with. I started with GameMaker because I couldn't understand C/C++ or any other language at the time. I started with the buttons. Then moved on to using the builtin language. Then I got tired of being limited in what I could do with it. Then moved onto Python. Then C/C++.

I think that specific path is a good path to get to learn programming: buttons, scripting then coding. Rather than just diving straight into C++.

bullno1

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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 08:15:06 pm »
SFML makes it too easy to make games with C++, remember kids: use OpenGL directly, don't use craps like SFML. What kind of crap is that? You load sprite with one statement?

Unreal Engine is another piece of crap, you can create such a big world which run smoothly with just some drag and drop? Blasphemy!!! UnrealScript? What kind of scripting crap is that?

OK, enough joke.

Although GameMaker has a weak rendering and audio engine and a super slow script engine, it's a newbie friendly package.

GameMaker actually have a script language. The script language resembles C++. And script languages only differs from C++ because they are interpreted by a VM. Languages are just a way of expressing algorithm, no matter what language you use, you must still learn the algorithm, understand it and write it in your language. I don't see how this encourage half-assed development. (GameMaker does have built-in A* path-finding and quick-sort, but they're the only algorithm that is built-in)

The engine itself does not come with any template (although now you can find many on their forum)

Quote
But it doesn't help that Game Maker runs like shit on my PC.

The guy who created that particular game sucks, that's all. Give him C++ he will still create a game that run like shit or may even format your hard drive or crash you OS.

Quote
I mean whats the point in learning C++ if I can just drag and drop crap like PhotoShop and make a game.

You cannot achieve anything decent if you rely on drag&drop. You have to use its script language, which is not that much different from C++. Chances are the creator of such game himself can not even tolerate his own creation and will not publish it.

If you are talking about the level editor, how else can you create a level but drag and drop? Do you actually want to code a level  :wink:  (just kidding)

Ah, the level editor. GM is like a Visual Studio for games. It comes with a decent level editor, a sprite/animation editor, a script editor with code completion and highlighting; and of course, a basic debugger with watch and log. You don't have to go and download tools separately, they all come in one package. Newcomers don't have to worry about "exporting" to "compatible formats".

Kids, stop using Visual Studio, go download the GCC toolchain, debug with Insight now!!! (OK, i'll stop the lame jokes). And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying GCC is bad, I just prefer the Visual Studio debugger, hover your mouse over a variable and it shows the value

GameMaker actually introduce newbies with a lot of programming concept. There is OOP with single inheritance, virtual method, reflection. There is hard-code vs data-driven and a lot more.

Try Spelunky http://www.spelunkyworld.com/ , a platform game with roguelike elements made with GameMaker. Run decently on my computer.

It is a pity that GameMaker has such a horrible back-end.

Quillraven

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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2010, 03:13:25 pm »
Quote
No, it isn't. you could have took two weeks more to learn C++ and make the game all on your own, and made it eat a lot less resources. There's just no excuse for half-assing a game with Game Maker or RPG Maker.


are you serious?

show me ONE person that used rpk maker, then studied c++ for two weeks and created a game better than the rpk maker game.

a good 2d game engine with tools to create your tilemaps,events,etc. like rpg maker does, is a LOT of work. for one person alone it will take much more than two weeks to work in an acceptable way ;)


yes, those tools are limited, but like others already said, they are perfect for beginners or advantaged programmes to create "easy" games fast.



show me one of your "game creator" tools :)

DroomNop

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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2010, 10:51:33 pm »
You can't exactly call stuff like this crap. Most of those Gamemaker games are qualitatively better than a big part of indie games written in a real language. And it's not just Drag'nDrop, it has it's own scripting language, children and other people can learn a lot of game logic with that. Sure they if they just wanted they could make equally good games with a real programming language, but it would take 25x the time, why should someone who's just interested in "creating games" bother with that much?

Spellbreaker

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Game Maker flooding the market with crap?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2010, 05:08:44 pm »
Hey there.

For me I just can say, I am really glad there are things like Wintermute, Visionaire and others available.

There are great commercial Games available done with Wintermute or Visionaire, not to mention that great Games have been Created using prepared Engines like Source, U3, Build, etc etc .

So I don't think it's a problem. Sure there's lot of crap, but even if just 1% of all that crap is a great game, it gives us 100 Great games per Year ;) ;)


Sincerly,

Spellbreaker

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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2010, 05:10:29 pm »
I also have to admit, that I created my very first RPG with "Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures" :) It was a lot of fun to create Games with that tool :D :D