Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Author Topic: Game Submissions now open  (Read 21167 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

FRex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
    • View Profile
    • My GitHub Page
    • Email
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 03:39:09 pm »
(...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
Not everything applies but the 5% rule does. :P
(I love how I wanted to avoid quoting post 'above' me and ended up on separate thread page...)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 03:41:53 pm by FRex »
ZipSavings, script to count rar/7z/zip savings: https://goo.gl/vvBj5M
LuaConsole: https://goo.gl/X4kRUk
FoxRaycaster: https://goo.gl/27nVS8
Small Games - Heart, Routing and Snek: https://goo.gl/15ZGWE https://goo.gl/k5gwWD https://goo.gl/4nKPnT
Botes - a notes app in Pascal: https://goo.gl/bzTqsi

Jebbs

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 358
  • DSFML Developer
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2014, 08:28:27 pm »
Hey all!

Thank you for the feed back. I want to do everything I can to make it a better experience for everyone involved, and hopefully that can be accomplished before the next jam. Fortunately with summer (and summer break from school) coming up, this should be possible. zsbzsb and I have already talked about a few things that should be implemented, and with all your suggestions I have some new ideas as well.
DSFML - SFML for the D Programming Language.

therocode

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
    • Development blog
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2014, 09:26:51 am »
Hey!

We didn't expect that we would be the only submitters haha.

In any case, the reason why we submitted with broken links like that is that the submission form had no star (*) on the binary fields so we though no binary was needed. Then 3 minutes before the deadline when we tried to submit, it said "error, at least one binary required!". Since there was only 3 minutes left, there is no way it would be possible to compile, pack and upload a binary haha.

Also, in my opinion, having a binary requirement is bad since people are on different systems anyway. I myself am on linux and getting a windows binary would be a big hassle. A linux binary on its own would require the player to have not only linux installed but also all dependencies' .so files available. Unless I go through the effort of setting all my dependencies up for static linking, which is something I'd not want to go through just to submit a binary with a gamejam entry, when the source is readily available anyway.

So for me, that requirement creates more complications than what it solves. But sure, if anyone _wants_ to submit binaries, then that's just a good thing. :)

For the ones who want to test the game, me and Kim are just about finished with porting the game to the web using emscripten, and when that is done, we'll post a link here for people to try out. Note though that this version doesn't use SFML since SFML is not emscriptenable, but it's the same content anyway.

eXpl0it3r

  • SFML Team
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9298
    • View Profile
    • development blog
    • Email
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2014, 09:53:16 am »
It makes totally sense to have a binary requirement, I mean you're supposed to create a "product" for the end-user, something you give a friend (who doesn't necessarily have to know C++ and all the building magic surrounding it) to play and have fun with it. Creating something that works out of the box on the right system is imho part of the process of creating a game.

Also you kind of said it yourself already, if it's a hassle for you to create a package that is just playable, just imagine how hard it will be for someone that doesn't have all the building knowledge you have. Especially if you pull in extra dependencies (like FeatherKit).

As for the dependencies, you can always ship the ones that can't be found with normal packet managers. You can even tell the compiler where the binary should be looking for shared libraries or add a simple script that will add something to the library path environment variable.

Saying "since people are on different systems anyway" sounds more like a lazy excuse than an actual argument.

Last but not least, I don't really know any game jams that wouldn't require you to provide at least one playable version of your game.

That being said, I'll be looking forward to the web version, so we at least get to see what it is that you guys create. ;)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 09:59:40 am by eXpl0it3r »
Official FAQ: https://www.sfml-dev.org/faq.php
Nightly Builds: https://www.nightlybuilds.ch/
——————————————————————
Dev Blog: https://dev.my-gate.net/
Thor: http://www.bromeon.ch/libraries/thor/

therocode

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
    • Development blog
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2014, 10:00:45 am »
It makes totally sense to have a binary requirement, I mean you're supposed to create a "product" for the end-user, something you give a friend (who doesn't necessarily have to know C++ and all the building magic surrounding it) to play and have fun with it. Creating something that works out of the box on the right system is imho part of the process of creating a game.

I never saw in the rules of the gamejam that "you're supposed to create a "product" for the end-user, something you give a friend (who doesn't necessarily have to know C++ and all the building magic surrounding it) to play and have fun with it." and that was not what I was in for the game jam for. If that is your idea of the game jam, then that's up to you but it's not mine.

People looking in this forum are coders using SFML anyway, and if they aren't able to build the game, then that's a shame I suppose, but in my opinion that's alright. It's a game jam which for me is about having some fund with your fellow coders, coding a game.

You can call it lazyness if you want, but I'd call it time priority. The same reason why you often don't see very pretty code design and neat code during a game jam. Is that lazyness too? :P

A requirement that would make sense though imo is to only use external dependencies that are easily available for the major platforms. Because then all games should be quite trivial to build. I mean they can even be provided after the deadline for convenience.

If the game jam time was more than 72 hours, then it could make more sense to have to provide a binary too. But 72 hours is barely enough to create a game if you want to polish it and design levels etc even if you're experienced, and to _also_ have to deal with creating reasonable binaries seems like a bit too much imo. Which is also why I like some others in this thread would suggest a weeks time or something. Then we're more likely to get more than one submission too. :)

eXpl0it3r

  • SFML Team
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9298
    • View Profile
    • development blog
    • Email
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2014, 10:08:24 am »
I never saw in the rules of the gamejam that "you're supposed to create a "product" for the end-user, something you give a friend (who doesn't necessarily have to know C++ and all the building magic surrounding it) to play and have fun with it." and that was not what I was in for the game jam for. If that is your idea of the game jam, then that's up to you but it's not mine.
It's not a rule as such, but then again how would you know, since you obviously didn't read the rules either...

Quote
A link to a playable version of the game for either Windows, Linux, or OS X is required when submitting. This must include the executable and all the assets/dependencies needed to run the game.
Official FAQ: https://www.sfml-dev.org/faq.php
Nightly Builds: https://www.nightlybuilds.ch/
——————————————————————
Dev Blog: https://dev.my-gate.net/
Thor: http://www.bromeon.ch/libraries/thor/

therocode

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
    • Development blog
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2014, 10:15:13 am »
It's not a rule as such, but then again how would you know, since you obviously didn't read the rules either...

Quote
A link to a playable version of the game for either Windows, Linux, or OS X is required when submitting. This must include the executable and all the assets/dependencies needed to run the game.

I read the rules last time, and I asked jebbs if they changed and he said no. But I didn't remember the details on submitting so I checked the form's mandatory fields, and according to the form's appearance, binaries was not one of them. :)

I wouldn't look for uploading guides in the rules.

Nexus

  • SFML Team
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6193
  • Thor Developer
    • View Profile
    • Bromeon
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2014, 10:15:15 am »
People looking in this forum are coders using SFML anyway, and if they aren't able to build the game, then that's a shame I suppose, but in my opinion that's alright. It's a game jam which for me is about having some fund with your fellow coders, coding a game.
But consider the following. You know how to build the game on at least one platform, since you did so already in order to test it. The effort for you to provide a binary is close to zero.

Another user must first find all the dependencies with their right versions (in your case FeatherKit, VorbisFile, OGG, JSON if I got it right), download and install them, and then configure everything to build your game. That is a lot of effort, and it's wasted if every user has to do it. Furthermore, this is a burden that keeps all the people that quickly want to have a look at the jam games away, since they don't feel like spending 15 minutes of configuration for every single game. In my opinion, not providing binaries contradicts the idea of easily accessible games. An important part of the jam is exchanging games and looking how others implemented the given theme.

I also see that it can be too much to request builds on multiple platforms by the developer, but as you say we could require that the game use only portable and available dependencies. Somebody of the community or the Game Jam Team could then take care of building it for missing platforms.
Zloxx II: action platformer
Thor Library: particle systems, animations, dot products, ...
SFML Game Development: first SFML book

select_this

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Current mood: just ate a pinecone
    • View Profile
    • darrenferrie.com
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2014, 10:25:01 am »
Somebody of the community or the Game Jam Team could then take care of building it for missing platforms.

I would be more than happy to do that if no one else wants to. :)

I can't build for Macs though.
Follow me on Twitter, why don'tcha? @select_this

therocode

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
    • Development blog
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2014, 10:27:17 am »
But consider the following. You know how to build the game on at least one platform, since you did so already in order to test it. The effort for you to provide a binary is close to zero.

...

Yep, sure, providing my binary would be close to zero effort, but keep in mind I had 3 minutes to go at the time haha, and I didn't want the upload form to be locked so that I couldn't upload at all. Even packing and uploading a binary that already exists within 3 minutes is a bit risky. :)

I also figured that since my binary would use shared libraries, as you say, the user would have to grab the dependencies anyway and if they do, an additional grabbing the game source, cmake, make and play is not much more effort.

But it is true that it keeps people away, but even if I would have provided a nice linux binary that would work for _all_ linux peolpe, it would _still_ keep all windows/mac users away which is kind of a big user group. This is a problem that is not easily solvable, and the more dependencies that are in play, the worse it gets. After all, who wants to install 5+ dependencies just to try out a gamejam game?

This seems to be a broader issue for game jams in general that incorporate users with different platforms.

I also see that it can be too much to request builds on multiple platforms by the developer, but as you say we could require that the game use only portable and available dependencies. Somebody of the community or the Game Jam Team could then take care of building it for missing platforms.

Yeah, indeed and that can indeed be a solution. :)

Another possible solution which would be cool but would take more maintenance effort would be if someone sets up a buildbot instance or something and every participant gets ftp-access to a folder to put the game's source with a cmakelists file and the buildbot automatically builds it for the major platforms. Then if you want dependencies, there is some time _before_ the game jam to request which ones you want, and have them installed on the bot. This solution would not really be worth it though if there are as few participants as we had.


therocode

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
    • Development blog
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2014, 10:29:00 am »
It's not a rule as such, but then again how would you know, since you obviously didn't read the rules either...

Also, I'd just want to point out that this type of discussion is not very nice and quite rude. If you continue that attitude I'll just not reply to you since I don't think it is very constructive.

eXpl0it3r

  • SFML Team
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9298
    • View Profile
    • development blog
    • Email
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2014, 10:32:34 am »
I read the rules last time, and I asked jebbs if they changed and he said no. But I didn't remember the details on submitting so I checked the form's mandatory fields, and according to the form's appearance, binaries was not one of them. :)

I wouldn't look for uploading guides in the rules.
Nothing changed on the rules since last time (see here). It's a valid point that the submit form could use some more visual aid, the rest are just excuses.

Yep, sure, providing my binary would be close to zero effort, but keep in mind I had 3 minutes to go at the time haha, and I didn't want the upload form to be locked so that I couldn't upload at all. Even packing and uploading a binary that already exists within 3 minutes is a bit risky. :)
It's been a few days by now, enough time to pack it and upload it. The submission pages are also editable. ;)
Official FAQ: https://www.sfml-dev.org/faq.php
Nightly Builds: https://www.nightlybuilds.ch/
——————————————————————
Dev Blog: https://dev.my-gate.net/
Thor: http://www.bromeon.ch/libraries/thor/

therocode

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
    • Development blog
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2014, 10:43:00 am »
It's been a few days by now, enough time to pack it and upload it. The submission pages are also editable. ;)

Why are you expecting me to have it uploaded ASAP anyway? I do have a life doing other stuff than just maintaining the gamejam entry. It sounds like you are angry with me, or that you think I am really lame for not having uploaded the binaries yet. Why don't you complain on all the others who didn't even upload? :P

It's not my job, nor my duty or anything to upload those binaries for you or others to try them out so please cut some slack. Maybe if you had paid me to do it, it would be a different story.

For your record, the coding time me and kim have spent after the game jam have been to port it to the web so that all of you can test it regardless of platform since that seemed more reasonable than providing binaries with dependencies, sorry if it isn't good enough for you.

It doens't feel very rewarding to participate when you end up being accused for being lazy, or making excuses for not uploading binaries etc. I have given you my reasons, so please stop with that attitude.

eXpl0it3r

  • SFML Team
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9298
    • View Profile
    • development blog
    • Email
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2014, 10:54:48 am »
Why are you expecting me to have it uploaded ASAP anyway? I do have a life doing other stuff than just maintaining the gamejam entry.
It's part of the rules of the game jam. If everyone just put themselves above all the rules all the time, there'd just be chaos.

It sounds like you are angry with me, or that you think I am really lame for not having uploaded the binaries yet.
I kind of am, but more for your elitist behavior of not following the rules and playing it of as if you were the cool guy that is allowed to do so and of comments like "if they aren't able to build the game, then that's a shame I suppose".

You made a mistake, but instead of fixing it asap you rather argue why it wasn't actually your fault and that the system needs change, etc.

It's not my job, nor my duty or anything to upload those binaries for you or others to try them out so please cut some slack. Maybe if you had paid me to do it, it would be a different story.
It is your duty since you decided to participate in the jam.

Why don't you complain on all the others who didn't even upload? :P
Because they didn't decide to submit it and as such don't have to follow the rules.

It doens't feel very rewarding to participate when you end up being accused for being lazy, or making excuses for not uploading binaries etc. I have given you my reasons, so please stop with that attitude.
I know, but it's always not very rewarding when one doesn't follow the rules.
Official FAQ: https://www.sfml-dev.org/faq.php
Nightly Builds: https://www.nightlybuilds.ch/
——————————————————————
Dev Blog: https://dev.my-gate.net/
Thor: http://www.bromeon.ch/libraries/thor/

therocode

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
    • Development blog
Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2014, 11:04:05 am »
stuff

Uuhmm, are you serious?

"You made a mistake, but instead of fixing it asap you rather argue why it wasn't actually your fault and that the system needs change, etc."

You know what, I won't share the link of the web-ported game in here. I never said it wasn't my fault, I merely gave the true reasons why i didn't. And I never said "the system has to change" I gave suggestions on how it in my opinion could be improved in a calm and constructive way, like many others in this thread... unlike you.

I find your post highly offending, and you're acting like quite a bitch imo. Sorry others, for having to read it in a public forum.

I won't take part in the next game jam, that's for sure. There are other game jams out there where there aren't people that get angry at you personally for missing out some details. I mean, if it is such a big deal, just disqualify the game. It is pretty lame to get personal and rude for a gamejam submission.

 

anything