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Author Topic: Game Submissions now open  (Read 20886 times)

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Jesper Juhl

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2014, 05:12:20 pm »
I meant "maybe" as in "maybe choose one or two libs; like Thor for example" to put on the allowed list as well. Not "maybe" as in allow people to arbitrarily choose one or two libs.

therocode

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2014, 05:36:59 pm »
Yep, I know. :) But the same thing still stands. You might get people saying "That's unfair, that people can use Thor! I don't want to use Thor, but I want to use X instead and it is as simple and easy to include etc. And Thor is not SFML! So why can't I use X?" which imo is a fair thing to think.

Jesper Juhl

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2014, 05:42:01 pm »
Personally I'd be fine fine with just SFML + standard lib & STL.
I think it would be fun to be constrained like that. It would put the focus square on SFML and it would make for easily cross-platform submissions.
I think a jam with that as part of the rule set could be a good/fun thing.

therocode

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2014, 06:04:31 pm »
Yep same. But I would also be fine with having a set amount of dependencies that people agree about before the jam. I don't mind either way.

Nexus

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2014, 06:07:24 pm »
The rule of forbidding higher-level libraries imposes two major problems.
  • People will end up either rewriting their favorite engine or copy-pasting parts of it. You can't effectively set a limit to the higher-level abstraction being used. If you forbid external dependencies, people will rewrite or paste them in source code.
  • The jam will get a focus towards the reinvention of the always-used techniques and tools, which will leave less time for the interesting parts, namely unique gameplay, graphics, sound, maybe even a story. Should the jam really be about reinventing the wheel again and again?
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Jesper Juhl

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2014, 06:53:27 pm »
Of course my suggestions (which were just that; suggestions) were not to encourage re-invention of the wheel.
My points were simply that by limiting the allowed dependencies we'd get a stronger focus on SFML (which I assume is a point of these jams) and we'd also make it easier for people to beuild for multiple platforms. Additionally a point is that, sometimes, being constrained in terms of what you are allowed to use can in itself provide some interesting results.

And please don't forget that these were just suggestions and things to debate (which we are now doing), nothing more :-)

select_this

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2014, 08:02:09 pm »
SFML Game Jam is serious business
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kimspindel

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2014, 09:20:53 pm »
The rule of forbidding higher-level libraries imposes two major problems.
  • People will end up either rewriting their favorite engine or copy-pasting parts of it. You can't effectively set a limit to the higher-level abstraction being used. If you forbid external dependencies, people will rewrite or paste them in source code.
  • The jam will get a focus towards the reinvention of the always-used techniques and tools, which will leave less time for the interesting parts, namely unique gameplay, graphics, sound, maybe even a story. Should the jam really be about reinventing the wheel again and again?

Good points. Now I'm not sure what to think x)
I guess SFML + a few specially selected, cross-platform libraries would be the best compromise, as Jesper mentioned before here:

Some suggestions/discussion points:

Since these are supposed to be SFML jams, why not limit the allowed dependencies to SFML + the C++ standard library + STL (and equivalent for bindings). Maybe one or two other libs that are commonly used and available on all platforms/bindings - but no more.
This would make it far easier to provide binaries (or for people to build themselves) and would emphasize that this is about what you can do with SFML and not arbitrary other libraries.
It would also make it fairly simple to provide pre-made cmake, scons etc recipies for people to use as starting points if they are not familiar with how to create such for building across platforms.


Grimshaw

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2014, 10:34:52 pm »
SFML Game Jam is serious business

I took that as a mocking commentary with no harm, and I really think I have to agree with you 100%. Maybe the jam should happen more freely? Let everyone do as they please (as long as SFML is a part of it) .

Just maybe, we are spending too much energy focusing on these strict rules instead of promoting a fun environment and advertising the jam to bring more participants.

select_this

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2014, 11:38:49 pm »
I took that as a mocking commentary with no harm

Yep, wasn't trying to make a dig at anyone, I'm just amazed at how the whole thing ended up so serious.
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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2014, 03:19:34 am »
I really don't want to get into this discussion again as we already have a thread full of why or why not we should allow external frameworks / libraries (sorry I am too lazy to dig for the link at the moment). I am just the lowly guy that did the website.  ::)


Just maybe, we are spending too much energy focusing on these strict rules instead of promoting a fun environment and advertising the jam to bring more participants.

What strict rules are you talking about? As far as I know the rules are open ended allowing any external library as long as it is not one of SFML's competitors.

External libraries are allowed, but not SFML's competitors, such as GLFW, SDL, Allegro, etc. The use of OpenGL/framework libraries is allowed.


As far as changing the rule about requiring an executable of the game I think we should open a separate thread to discuss specifically that rule change.
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Lo-X

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2014, 04:40:37 am »
Sorry to intrude so lately in the discussion, but...

For me, impossible to provide an executable on the 3 major OSes, I just don't have any apple device for that.
I think Nexus talked about something that build automatically from sources, it would be nice even if I've troube to see how such a thing can be made.

I feel like the rules are pretty fine, except for the duration which could be a week imo.

As a side note : I should be able to help the team (jebbs, zsbzsb mainly) with web stuff at the end of august

Jebbs

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2014, 07:23:40 am »
Hey guys,

Sorry for being late to this as well. The discussion in this thread seems to have toned down, but I will say that if anyone wants to discuss how the jam works, that is fine and I am all for it, but let's do so in different threads where we can focus on one subject at a time. And let's also do it in an amiable manner please.
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Nexus

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2014, 09:44:49 am »
Maybe the jam should happen more freely? Let everyone do as they please (as long as SFML is a part of it). Just maybe, we are spending too much energy focusing on these strict rules instead of promoting a fun environment and advertising the jam to bring more participants.
I think a dedicated and organized jam needs some rules (more than just a deadline), otherwise it's like every other SFML project. And the point of such rules is to improve the accessibility. Fewer dependencies -> easier to build -> game can be compiled for more platforms -> more people play it :)

I really don't want to get into this discussion again as we already have a thread full of why or why not we should allow external frameworks / libraries
Then, we focused especially on OpenGL and not so much higher-level libraries. Also, the aspect of being easier to distribute/build with fewer dependencies wasn't a criterion. We were not in dire need to restructure everything, either ;)

but let's do so in different threads where we can focus on one subject at a time.
Can you split the posts starting from this one into a separate thread? If we open a new thread just to continue the discussion here, information will again be scattered.
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Tank

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Re: Game Submissions now open
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2014, 08:34:55 am »
Ah, I so much remember the goold old SCC (SFML Community Contest) from the old German forum. :P We had 26 rounds and faced similar problems. The rules forbid any external libraries except SFML and the C++ standard libraries, though. Each submission had to include your own source code _only_ (we checked that).

In the end two things might have turned the SCC into something even better:
  • Contest SDK: contains SFML for all officially supported platforms, a pre-defined directory structure and a CMake file (alternatively project/make files, which is even easier for the participant).
  • Browser: a nice little GUI application that lists all rounds and entries and lets you download them (download manager) and also assists you with uploading your entry.

The browser was even almost finished when interest got lost.. Here are two screenshots I was able to rescue: ;) (it's German, but you will get the idea)




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