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Author Topic: SFML Game Jam  (Read 29340 times)

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Aster

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2013, 06:56:57 pm »
I would suggest SFML be required, but without any further restrictions.

*raises hand up* I used sf::Vector2f in my GLFW game! Does that count? :P


I'm curious as to whether 3D games should be allowed ( if GL were allowed ). Or should we keep it a 2D Jam?
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Nexus

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2013, 07:28:21 pm »
Then I wonder why you call it "SFML Game Jam" and not simply "Game Jam"? If it's not tied to SFML or only to a tiny part of it, it doesn't make sense to promote it as SFML.

I think such a jam is a great opportunity to show that the SFML community is active, and to present their projects to other game developers. Games based on OpenGL defeat this purpose and may convey the impression that combining SFML with OpenGL is the standard way to do it (as it was for SDL if you wanted reasonable performance). But it's not, OpenGL is only needed for very specific features.
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lolz123

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2013, 07:35:56 pm »
@ Aster:
We can say that it at least needs to use SFML windowing and sound or something like that. Some minimum integration level. OpenGL integration is part of SFML's feature set, so I think you should be able to use it. If OpenGL were allowed, then why not allow 3D as well?

Quote
*raises hand up* I used sf::Vector2f in my GLFW game! Does that count? :P

We could have a SFML integration rating or something, or just ask those who rate it to keep in mind the extent to which SFML was used. Let the community decide if the developer was cheesing the use of SFML.

Quote
Games based on OpenGL defeat this purpose and may convey the impression that combining SFML with OpenGL is the standard way to do it (as it was for SDL if you wanted reasonable performance).

Well, if everyone ends up using OpenGL, then it IS the standard way of doing it  ;) I think that games submitted would give a reasonable representation of who likes using SFML's drawing API and who prefers to use OpenGL with SFML.

I don't want to abandon my OpenGL  :'(
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The Hatchet

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2013, 07:46:41 pm »
My 2 cents:  I feel it should only be SFML and whatever base language of your choice.  Leave it to SFML graphics.  Since this is an 'SFML Game Jam' we should try to push the sfml graphics to really see what people can do with them.  Everyone knows what OpenGL can do, more or less, but maybe not everyone knows the capabilities of the SFML graphics library.

I've always believed in the theory that the more restrictions you put on something the more creative and inventive ways of doing that which you aren't suppose to do come out.  Without restrictions I've seen creativity get stifled and ways to solves problems or inventions become boring and copy pasted since without the restrictions as soon as someone finds one way for something to work pretty good it just get copied and used over and over.

Just my 2 cents.

Nexus

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2013, 07:47:14 pm »
Well, if everyone ends up using OpenGL, then it IS the standard way of doing it  ;)
What I meant is that it's perfectly fine for 99% of the features to use the SFML API -- it is powerful enough. And the game jam would be a nice event to demonstrate this power.

I don't want to abandon my OpenGL  :'(
I understand that, but since we are talking about a SFML Game Jam, you should probably not stick to your personal preference.
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lolz123

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2013, 07:59:13 pm »
I must continue the fight for OpenGL  :)

One of the cool features of SFML is that you can so easily integrate it with plain OpenGL! I think this feature should be advertised like any other. SFML includes OpenGL integration, so using OpenGL is still using a feature of SFML. If SFML provides something, you should be able to use it. Besides, wouldn't it be cool to have people make 3D games?
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eXpl0it3r

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AW: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2013, 08:14:32 pm »
I'm fine with cool 2D games.
Besides where's the difference in using OpenGL + SDL/Allegro/GLFW/your own window code?
That SFML has this feature is quite "normal", but SFML is much more than yet-another-opengl-instanziaton-library. SFML stregth lies with its API simplicity on all multimedia aspects, so I think we should show this more off.
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Nexus

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2013, 08:19:29 pm »
One of the cool features of SFML is that you can so easily integrate it with plain OpenGL!
Neither is that a specific feature of SFML, nor is that argument very expressive. You can extend it to "SFML allows you to use the Audio module for sound, and Irrlicht for graphics". Like this, you can justify any other library.

You should rather address the arguments we brought:
  • It is called SFML Game Jam, there are tons of other game jams where OpenGL is allowed.
  • We can push the library and demonstrate what is possible using SFML alone, including its Graphics module.
  • By restricting to SFML, we have a clearly defined scope that matches the community. There is no confusion about OpenGL versions or extensions. Results are more comparable if the same technology is used.
  • Users will learn to be creative with SFML, new techniques or best practices might emerge.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 08:23:49 pm by Nexus »
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lolz123

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2013, 08:31:27 pm »
Quote
Neither is that a specific feature of SFML, nor is that argument very expressive. You can extend it to "SFML allows you to use the Audio module for sound, and Irrlicht for graphics". Like this, you can justify any other library.

Well, SFML wraps OpenGL. So you would be forcing the use of a wrapper, whose simplicity should provide enough justification for most people to use it instead of OpenGL. If it is so powerful (which I think it is), then it shouldn't need to be forced. I am just one of those guys so used to OpenGL that they won't use anything else  :P

Also, I don't see an "Irrlicht" header in SFML, but I see an "OpenGL" one.

But fine, if OpenGL is still off the table, I will probably compete regardless.
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G.

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2013, 08:41:47 pm »
IMO, allowing raw OpenGL removes the "Hey, look what you can do with SFML!" factor. It's not an SFML game anymore, it's an OpenGL game.

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2013, 11:51:45 pm »
Quote
We could have a SFML integration rating or something, or just ask those who rate it to keep in mind the extent to which SFML was used. Let the community decide if the developer was cheesing the use of SFML.

+1

SFML has more potential than just the graphics library for drawing. It is a great library for OpenGL, with its classes handling texture and shader loading. Sure, its graphics library is great and most of the time will leave no reason to use raw OpenGL, but I think that limiting the jam to just 2d games would be a bad idea.

The Audio library in sfml is designed for 3d use. I think sfml is a great library for 3d as well as  2d. Plus saying no OpenGL is hard to really define ( #define NoOpengGL  :P ), for example you could use sfml's texture and shader loading, which I use along with raw OpenGL. is that raw OpenGL or sfml?

This is why I like the idea of "grading" on integration of sfml. I think it would be a lot more impressive to others if the community came out with a cool 3D game, even if they didn't integrate sfml as much a a 2d platformer. Showing that this library is a viable alternative to SDL as an OpenGL windowing library is just as important imho as showing another demonstration of its amazing graphics.

I think people should be graded on how well they integrate sfml. using the graphics library should be a bonus, but not a law.

Aster

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2013, 12:20:10 am »
We could have a SFML integration rating or something, or just ask those who rate it to keep in mind the extent to which SFML was used. Let the community decide if the developer was cheesing the use of SFML.

I second this idea. It would certainly help prevent not-made-here syndrome.

One of the cool features of SFML is that you can so easily integrate it with plain OpenGL! I think this feature should be advertised like any other. SFML includes OpenGL integration, so using OpenGL is still using a feature of SFML. If SFML provides something, you should be able to use it.

OpenGL integration is definitely not one of SFML's strong points. It has so many issues, like using SFML-graphics with GL. *glares at Laurent*

Others are right in saying it's an SFML game jam, not a simple game jam. One of the points of the jam is to show what SFML really is, and if we don't use its best feature, we'd be killing that bit.
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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2013, 02:22:39 am »
I'd say technical aspects, besides the game needing to use SFML, shouldn't be that strongly rated. As such, it's ok with me if you wan't to code your game using a little (or a lot) of OpenGL. Typically, using OpenGL also takes longer to code than the SFML counterparts, so I don't really see an unfair advantage there, considering you still get the same 72 hours.

There are thousands of libraries out there, we can't go deciding on a case by case basis which ones are allowed.

Maybe having one arbitrary but simple rule would be good. Something like "You can't use windows other than the one(s) instantiated by SFML."

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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2013, 07:58:11 am »
I like the idea that only SFML is used, but maybe just because I never used it a lot with my SFML projects. I like the idea that it would demonstrate the power of SFML only using SFML.


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Re: SFML Game Jam
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2013, 10:34:26 am »
Rating on SFML integration is unrealistic, it assumes that everyone releases the source code of their games and that people have the time and will to go through every bit of it to determine the extent to which SFML is used, which would likely vary greatly by experience and opinion anyway.

I don't use OpenGL but I understand why someone who is proficient in it would rather use it than use SFML's graphics library, however that is not the point of this Jam. I think we need to make it very clear that this is to showcase the quality and speed in which you can make games using SFML without the use of other graphical libraries.

If someone wants to use Box2D or Boost or whatever else I feel that's pretty reasonable, but use of any other library for rendering and/or based on SFML2 (OpenGL, SFGUI, TGUI, Thor) should not be allowed, in my opinion.

 

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